Dead or Alive 5: Last Round

Man giant wall of text. I'll read this when I get back from the store.

 

The super massive novel type post, I skimmed it.

The Aoi player used a move that was indeed on purpose. That damage difference was massive and why they gambled (yomi) with it was likely from a read, or against player tendencies.. Again this is offline arcade play against strong players, where you can make reads and they hold up. The player put himself in no risk because it was offline and he had more than +10 advantage. It isn't NA online BS. Why "you" should care is because you play Aoi and i've learned a lot from that particular player recently. You don't seem know very much about her and certainly shouldn't be blasting that guy, who you could learn from.

As for your DOA system arguments they are rather pointless. You seemed to have missed my edit, but 14f attacks aren't even guaranteed at +15 offline in dojo. DOA isn't really about punishing (it is not VF), the frame values are always changing and again 14f attack no land at +15 from Mila 6P+G for example. So your idea about fighting game fundamentals doesn't really apply to DOA, as it's ever changing system is not finished, and the game coughs up incorrect data. That being said the system it uses now isn't terribly hard to understand, give it some time maybe you'll get it.

I'm sure I missed things, but I skimmed twice and picked out the interesting parts.

 

Bstar stahp! Writing essays and getting destroyed in DOA is not Sega Cup practice!

 

I get what @steelbaz is saying but what he isn't understanding is that in DOA small ADVANTAGES still come off as DISADVANTAGE.

Again I will explain! If Christy is mashing out a combo. The combo could be like 6 hits long. Ok you block it you are at like +5 or something now what? Often if the opponent keeps mashing her punch beats most of the things you can retaliate with. This sort of system just promotes spamming which is why I say that if someone is going to mash out a full string combo then make it punishable or at least have a bigger disadvantage. Saying dumb shit like oh you should go for a counter hit is like "WHAT??!?" I am going for a counter but my elbow keeps getting best by her punch although I HAVE THE ADVANTAGE. And what makes this so bad is that now you end up being stunned.

So this is why I continuously say that if this is how DOA is going to be then they should adjust the stun system. It has to be one or the other because having both obviously won't happen.

 

Doa is lame, argue about it on FSD with the other emo kids!!!!!!

 

Is it safe to go over to FSD? Because from what I heard their daily ranting reads something like SNAKEBOSS's old rants. I might need an adult.

 

Haha I already love this site. @Rodnutz it's been a long while since I played DOA but I think some of your issues may have something to do with the game's awful netcode. In any case I agree with your points. I'd enjoy DOA a lot more if it had better punishment and less emphasis on stuns/delays.

I find competitive VF (and Tekken, SF, etc) a million times more interesting to watch than DOA because I understand and can clearly see the amount of skill required to play at that level. In DOA, it generally boils down to who can guess better during the stun game.

 

I blame FSD for nerfing racheal to elliot status, and team ninja for crappy balancing in general. the reason why DOA doesn't work for me anymore is because it fucks with the triangle system. since stuns essentially nerf blocking we have to take risks JUST to play defensively. risk and defense should never be in the same sentence unless we're talking about evade( and even in VF failed evades are the scariest things you can experience.) overall that's why i think this game is so spam happy. defense is too weak and offense is too strong.

 

Indeed there is no reward for guessing correctly via defending. I've said this plenty of times. Alpha spams out a 10 hit string that hits at many levels and almost damn near impossible to block. Your reward for pulling off that difficult feat is +5 or worse because for some characters the last hit of a combo can cause a guard break. smdh

 

When I was more successful in online matches just mashing instead of thinking, DOA kind of lost its luster for me.

It's a shame too because I like the game, but I just can't bring myself to take it too seriously.

 

hey rodnuts wanna hear a joke?
guard breaks that are negative on block...(fucking team ninja)

 

Some Japanese Arcade Ranbats (first fight starts 45 seconds in)

 

Hello VFDC! I'm from the DOA community. I have actually met plenty of the VF players here in NorCal and actually had the pleasure of doing offline casuals with some. I enjoyed watching @cobratron Kage go to work at Sega Cup and represent for NorCal! Anyway, I just came here to post that I see a lot of players are misinformed about DOA5U. I know it's hard understanding the game if you only have been playing online (DOA5U's netcode is pretty crap). I am willing to do my best to help players understand and learn DOA if they are interested (rather it is offline or online). I am on both XBL and PSN. Let me know if any of you are interested. I can also answer questions here if needed! =D

 

Reading most of the posts, it just sounds like what I usually hear at FreeStepDodge, "most of you don't know how to play the game". So you brush it off and deem it trash because you don't take your time to learn the game. You guys also should not base anything from an online experience. You know most who play online will just mash.

DOA5U is a very solid game, do not read this as a DOA player trying to defend their game. I speak as someone "who actually studies a game they show interests in", and it is not just for DOA.

DOA is not VF, and VF and is not DOA. A lot of people are too misinformed about the differences between the two and some DOA players who play VF (those who do from the DOA community do not have the best knowledge of VF, I know this just from the way they talk about the two, even without more understanding of their home game 'DOA') have no idea what they are talking about when they are referencing VF in response to DOA.

Neither game relies on environmental usage as one another, spacing is not the same (spacing is universal but are still different in VF and DOA), punishment is very different in DOA, since the generic form of punishment in DOA is throw punishment. It is this way because frame data is different in DOA and it works differently, people refuse and do not choose to accept that (which is unwise, to decline rules and basic concepts of the game you are playing).

I have pointed out the issues with the community (players generally) recently in this post; http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/pedestal-mentality-how-it-hurts-the-fgc.4336/page-2#post-171757

People do not realize that their behavior at FSD is seen at other communities and how it leaves a bad taste in your mouth (not everyone at FSD are misbehaved and terrible at the game). People seem to think that if you don't play DOA, no one pays attention, which is being naive.

Anyway, as my good friend Prince Adon mentioned, if you have an interest in DOA and want to learn the game, or want matches, you may hit me up as well on Xbox Live or PSN. If you're in NorCal in the Richmond area, I, as well my friend Requiem host offline casuals in Oakland on Fridays, if you want more information and you're interested in playing offline, let me know and I will send you information to the venue.

gamertag: II Hajin II
psn: iHajin

DOA5U is a very good game, you're just not always going to see the best play because DOA online (netcode) is just very, very bad, unfortunately.

 

I also made an account for the same reason and because DOA got me interested in VF. I'll attempt to explain some stuff right now. First off this game does have punishment. Both strike and throw punishment exist, just throw punishment is more prevalent because throws are faster than strikes and thus can punish more things.

This game does not reward bad fundamentals. If you practice and recognize what is throw punishable and by what you will never be mashed out of anything. That only happens online because DOA online is a clusterfuck of nonsense. Those of you who have been making assumptions on the game based on online play I would like you to consider this: DOA online is VASTLY different from DOA offline.

Defense is also not bad in this game. You have crushes and holds and some characters are also very good at whiff punishment and keep away as well as evasion. Let's not forget that alot of moves in this game are highly negative on block. The reason for this is because the game revolves around scoring counterhits and counterhit is the most common hit status in the game. To land counter hits you will want to get in between your opponents attacks when they are trying to apply the offense that you guys consider to be too good which involves making reads or simply reacting to what your opponent is doing. That is just one option. You also have holds and sidestep. Sidestep is one of the most misunderstood mechanics in this game alongside holds so I'll explain those right now.

Sidestep in this game is not meant to be used like VF sidestep. If you guys are getting counterhit by linear strikes during sidestep it is for 1 of 2 reasons:

1. Your sidestep was poorly timed.
2. You did a sidestep attack which was beat out because the speed of the opponents string was greater.

The proper way to use sidestep in this game is to sidestep linear pokes in the middle of strings or pokes of moderate to slow speed. If you use sidestep attacks in these instances they will usually land on normal or counter hit. In all other instances you will want to do a simple sidestep, or possible double sidestep. When you side step some pokes in this game such as mid's you are granted frame advantage. Sometimes moves that are safe or even frame advantage on block become throw punishable when you sidestep them.

As for holds they are not something that are meant to be spammed. They are intended to disrupt the opponents offense when you have a read on them. When you watch high level play you will notice that most holds are done on reaction to specific strings or reads and not just tossed out randomly. The holds are also necessary in this game because of the stun system. Stuns are so good in this game that you get a chance at launching the opponent. If holds did not exist in this game everyone would be getting damage for free. You should consider the holds as a form of punishment for how easy it is to launch someone in this game compared to other fighting games.

Staggering out of stuns is also a smart form of defense because it can limit the opponents mixups and force them to start using their deep stuns to setup launchers. Since you are now limiting your opponents options it becomes easier to make a read on what they will do with holds.

As you guys can see DOA requires a player to have good reaction time and judgement. It is only at the lowest level of play (aka online play) that it is this mashfest most of you seem to speak of. Fundamentals do exist in the game if you take the time to learn them. This game does not play like VF or other 3D fighters. It has its own set of rules and reasons for why things are the way they are and as you play and understand the game as DOA and not think about it in terms of other 3D fighters you will begin to see why most of it makes sense.

Lastly to whoever thinks the characters in this game play the same they do not. I would like anyone who thinks this to watch tournament level Bass play then watch high level Ayane play. There are ideal roles and ways to play characters; This is not DOA4 where everything is all about the stun game.

That is all. Add me on PSN for some games in DOA and VF. I've been wanting to get into VF for a while but have no one to play against lol. I use Jean Kujo.

 

This game does not play like VF or other 3D fighters. It has its own set of rules and reasons for why things are the way they are and as you play and understand the game as DOA and not think about it in terms of other 3D fighters you will begin to see why most of it makes sense.


This is true. However, it does not really solve DOA's problems.

I mean, VF was not born like it is today. It evolved slowly. To me, there is a clear gap between VF2 and VF3 in terms of how the game evolved. VF4 was another big jump, but TBH maybe that was the peak in terms of what you could do with a 1 vs 1 planar fighting system.
VF5 added OM and the side turned game, which has been further refined in FS, but the essence of VF gameplay was established in 4 IMO.

This is to say, there has been innovation, but the core of the game system seems to be established. I prefer to believe this was not a random coincidence, that AM2 stumbled upon it by chance and, you know, thought "oh well the is what we've got, why bother to change it?".

Compare this to DOA or, at a similar level to SC. Sometimes it seems that even Tecmo does not know what the hell it want DOA to be. Take the Powerblow or the Powerlauncher. That stuff, like SC5 supers, to me is symptomatic of some deeply ambivalent thinking about what a fighting game should be like.

IMO Tecmo should stop adding stupid shit to the game and just go back to basis. They know how to make appealing character design, they sure know how to make things pretty, but the core gameplay seems so haphazard. I enjoy greatly watching DOA vids, but its silly fun in a way, with 12 hit combos being the par for the course and matches decided on a whim (FS is also guilty of this to an extent TBH).

I like that in DOA5 ninjas as not as dominant as they used to be. I remember Master winning a lot, nowadays seeing Hayabusa in a final is a rare event of sorts. Nowadays however you're more likely to see ALPHA152 in a final. To me its like opponents are thinking "oh yeah, now check this out! ALPHA!" and the opponent goes "oh so you think you can ALPHA me? now take MY ALPHA" and matches degenerate in to flurry of kicks. This is so stupid.

I know this may come across as condescending toward DOA, but really, this would be the same if Dural was in question. its like Tecmo does not give a shit that tournaments degenerate into a ALPHA vs ALPHA contest ( used to be Ninjas anyway, so the problem is not even with ALPHA being playable!).

 

As someone who has VF as his favorite F-game, but that is spending time to learn DoA ever since December last year, I have to say that most problems people talk about on this thread are because of the online, not because of the game. Also, DoA doesn't play like any other 3D fighter, comparing it to VF is pointless. If you think the game is mashy, try playing offline or understanding the mechanics better, you will see that it's not.

Seriously, how can you complain about powerblow and powerlauncher when those increase the ammount of guarranted damage, aka, makes the game less random?

Also, DoA4 used to be simple, and revolved only around the stun game, and both 5 vanilla and ultimate added mechanics to make the game more deep (critical burst, powerblow/launch, flops, etc...), not to mention the game has a fair ammount of focus on whiff punish, good reads, block punish (Kasumi and Marie are example of characters that a lot of stuff are punishable) and anti-mashing mechanics (try spamming holds against alpha, just... try it, you will regret it).

 

@MAtteoJHDY
Actually DOA's evolved like every other fighter, just usually not for the better. That's probably why several of the top names in DOA stopped taking it seriously or flat out abandoned it starting with 4 and continuing with 5.

As for the ninjas being good, well you can argue that with VF and Akira, or Tekken and Mishimas, etc. Alpha is a gimmick character similar to Shun or Taka. She does a wonderful job of exposing the faults with the stun system. Helena and Christie are even better at it than Alpha, which is why they're very popular at majors.

When you can watch a DOA grand final without top players whiffing counter holds every few seconds, that is when DOA will be respected IMO.