Defense with GT

LOL tricky are you following manji's footsteps? LOL or you can just hold 6pg like you do in matches. hahahaa

 

I don't understand what? I'm talking about regular P+G throws for ducking under delay throws (not talking about wolf's catch throw). For the Delayed Burning Hammer to beat ECD, just doing another Fuzzy or even a 2nd ECD (tho probably not that one) will duck it.

No footsteps are being followed here.

 

Did some extra testing. I'm guesstimating that to beat ECD with delayed mid you have:

3frames for a 14 frame mid
2frames for a 15 frame mid
1frames for a 16 frame mid
0frames for a 17 frame mid

Basically, you can't be launched out of a proper ECD this way. This won't change based on disadvantage because of the nature of evade canceling in FS.

 

It's already been looked at, how many frames you have to block mids using ECD or EFD I'll try to pull it up for us here.

 

Nevermind, I deleted my post due to blockheadedness. >_<

GT is right. Obviously the attacker cannot input attacks while defender is in recovery (the disadvantage) or defenders evade would turn into a succesful one. Only ECD from neutral situation needs to count, and that situation is fixed.

I got lost in thought here.

 

well that sucks cuz it'll make this post look like it's responding to nothing.

God3l's "DIY frames analysis" thread has the answers you seek.

[Note: all values assume neutral (+/-0) situation; earliest you can cancel a failed evade is on frame 10. The dash/crouch dash take extra frames, of course.]

Crouch Dash Cancel takes 5 frames to reach crouch and 7 frames to return to standing guard.

866G2 is considered dashing forward on frames 11-13, guarding high on frame 14, guarding low and ducking highs on frame 15. You can guard low instantly if not moving.

833G is considered ducking highs on frames 11-15, guarding low on frame 16, guarding high on frame 17. 833G must complete the crouch dash motion before it is considered guarding low.

 

Yeah, those numbers are not what matters, see my edited post above to see what I was after.

Thanks for quoting the numbers anyway, Ill jot them down for future reference.

 

you know retroactively editing posts can make a thread really hard to follow. . . It's like hearing a joke but only getting the punchline with no set-up. Don't make too much sense.

 

Well iirc it took me less than a minute to delete it after posting, maybe you shouldn't have been so fast.

 

Here I am thinking I'm being responsive. Noted for you next time. I'll just let you hang a bit longer.

 

Okay. I'm just barely able to understand some of these defensive techniques and why they work. I don't know if I'm doing ECDC correctly.
Tell me if I got this right.

1. Strike or throw
2. If you are at a disadvantage go to 3, otherwise repeat 1
3. If you are at 0 to -6 then go to 4, otherwise go to 5.
4. Perform fuzzy : , then go to 1
5. Attempt evade: or , then if you hear your character make a sound go to 1, otherwise continue with 6
6. Cancel that evade by doing or
7. Cancel that dash by hitting
repeat..

Please tell me how to adjust my little chart, rather than explain the whole thing over again.. I have to see things a certain way or I wont get it.. visually oriented I guess..

Another question I had: I know when I cancel a dash or crouchdash, the cancel actually seems to stop forward momentum. Should I see something similar when cancelling an evade with the dash?

If I want to practice cancelling an evade with a crouchdash specifically, should I keep practicing real fast, or is there any kind of pause in between the and ? Do you buffer in the before the even finishes?

It seems like it requires too keen of reflexes to react to the sound of your characters evade attempt, then change plans real quick. Is that how you guys do it though? Or is it more like : You start this knowing you're doing ECDC from the beginning, and ignore the sound your character might make?

I wish I could see the latest FS ECDC technique demonstrated in slow mo, with detailed inputs shown.

 

for 3. It should be -0 to -5. You can't fuzzy at -6. For -6 upwards you should think of it as one command and not 3 seperate steps. You can watch what happens as you're inputting it. If your evade failed you'll automatically cancel and defend. If it was successful and there's a window where your commands don't matter anyway so you have time to stop the rest of your EDCTEG whatever and retaliate.

 

Okay, so here's my re adjusted chart per your advice

1. Strike or throw
2. If you are at a disadvantage go to 3, otherwise go to 1
3. If you are up to -5 disadvantage then go to 4, otherwise go to 5.
4. Perform fuzzy : , then go to 2
5. ECDC or , then immediately or canceled by
6. Did you hear your character? If yes go to 1, if not go to 2

 

I would add that the use of 33 or 66 to cancel your dash have slightly different uses. the 33 is to get under high full circulars, and the 66 is to block the mids, as you can't block all circular mids using 33 at certain disadvantages that you can with 66.

 

When u cancel the evade it will dramatically shorten the evade window. Technically there is a slight pause between pressing up/down and then dashing. However, unless you play on a hitbox you should probably just do it as fast as possible. It's unlikely you will be doing the dash too quickly on a joystick/controller.

BTW, that is a good defensive flow chart and will help you play much more sound.

To get the most out of it be sure to use it as a tool, and not as a crutch. Be mindful of what your opponents reactions are. By all means start matches with that template, but use it as a compare and contrast --that is, how do my opponents not fit into a standard 'defend them' template, and adjust accordingly. An opponent who randomly spams 2p, or pai/lau 1kk, or similar moves can wreck a solid defensive theory like this. Similarly very good players will know how to delay, abare, use hit-tracking strings, circulars, etc to dismantle defense by the book.

I only mention this because it can be a source of great frustration, but it's a little less frustrating if you at least know why it's happening

All in all though, by playing with this defensive flow chart you will get much stronger, much quicker. Expect it to take some time to learn to make adjustments on the fly. As you use it more and more it will become every easier to recognize opponent patterns and punish accordingly.

 

Okay, so I probably just need to work on my stick speed. I probably wont need to look at my chart again, just once seeing it layed out is enough., to make sure I have the steps down.

Oh and thanks for the 33 vs 66 thing Tricky, I wouldn't have thought of that.

 

Defense 102 : Defense at -6 - -9.

I'm sure most of you know already, but -6 - -9 presents a situation where you can no longer duck throws. If someone chooses to throw you every time in this situation you must attack from disadvantage or be forced into a 3-way throw guess. So, in this situation you will likely have to guess between a throw attempt or a safe counter hit launcher. However, there are ways to circumvent this type of guess using options specific to your character:

Akira - K~G
Aoi - Tenchi(TE), 236P+K, 4K+G
Brad - None
Eileen - K~G
El Blaze - None
Goh - 6P+K+G (TE + Throw Sabaki Option Select), 4P+K+G (...), 46K
Jacky - K~G
Jean - 4P+K+G(TE)
Jeffrey - K~G
Kage - K~G
Lau - K~G
Lei - 236P+K
Lion - K~G, 214P
Pai - None
Sarah - K~G
Shun - None(?)
Taka - None(?), Nitaku starts at -5 for Taka.
Vanessa DS - 46KP, 46P+K
Vanessa OS - K~G
Wolf - K~G, RAW(TE)

Characters with K~G cancel can cause a throw to whiff and a CH launcher to NH. This makes your defense in Nitaku a bit more safe by purposefully mitigating the damage you can take. By using your characters "fake kick" you are technically attacking therefor a throw attempt will whiff through your character. If you are hit by a CH launcher in nitaku and you used K~G, you will be hit in the recovery frames of K~G and wont be CH.

Sabaki's will attack through throw attempts and if placed correctly reverse attack properties. An example is if Jacky likes to use 2_6P in Nitaku, Aoi should use 236P+K to reverse the punch and avoid throws.

Inashi's like Jean's 4P+K+G allow you option select a throw tech and reverse attack properties. This will also cause you to be NH by attacks similarly to K~G cancel.

 

Taka has his 4P+K+G and hcfP punch and elbow sabakies for a little bit of extra defense at his nitaku level.

 

Isn't 4P+K+G(TE) also viable for Akira?

 

Can you elaborate on this one ? Is the purpose to do the roll move + TE ?
I don't get where the throw sabaki will happened with this input