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Virtua Fighter vs Dead or Alive discussion thread

Discussion in 'General' started by Blackula, Mar 11, 2013.

  1. Pai~Chun

    Pai~Chun Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Lishao Tao GPK
    Wait, everyone in DoA has a low reversal? o_O

    I wouldn't say Aoi's are that expert, as on a decent connection, a reasonably well timed 1P+K alone snatches a lot of stuff, shutting down the opp's launch game in many cases. The Tenchi stance easily reflects plenty of stuff too. The trickier counters are probably more in the 3 sabakis, which require much more of an advanced read or anticipation of the attacker's moves.
    Not sure if any DoA characters need or have anything that eats specific moves in a similar fashion?
     
  2. Mlai

    Mlai Well-Known Member

    Ha ha, Aoi is not "that expert." Only VF players would say that.

    In order to use Aoi's reversals as part of your game, rather than say once-in-a-blue-moon lucky guesses, you have to be familiar with the VF game. Because the timing is tight. In DOA, you can start using holds right off the bat, just like you can start learning how to block right off the bat. Because the window is lenient, you can use it on reaction rather than only using it when you can read the opponent.

    The only thing "harder" about DOA's holds are that there's 3 levels you'd have to choose from (high, mid, low), rather than just 2 levels for most of VF's reversals.
     
  3. IvorB

    IvorB Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Ivor_Biguns
    They did have levels in DOA but I think they were only low and high. No reason mid could not be added. The way the parries worked in the game was incredibly awesome. Just quick smooth motion with minimal damage and the flow keeps going. Yes, you could find yourself in a volley of parries but since the parries had different animations depending on the move it looked really awesome and was a real rush. Also a throw could, at any point, beat out a hold but could also be escaped.

    So you could have strike - parry - strike - parry - low strike - parry - throw - throw escape all happening with minimal damage being taken while your opponent was at close range but all with different animations and really fast and snappy. I wish I could find a YouTube clip of people playing the game properly. Sometimes my mate and I would have one of these exchanges and just have to pause and be like "wow! How cool was that?"

    Some characters like Tina and Bayman also had proper reversals which were what you would understand as a reversal like Aoi's. These were QCB + hold.

    Really the DOA system was the most exciting innovation I've seen in a fighting game. I was so disappointing when DOA2 came out and they had made the parries into full on reversals for everyone. I would love to play a modern game with the DOA system in it. Heck, I would even just love to play DOA again.

    I don't think you could have a cross-over game with the current hold system in place. You would basically be nerfing Aoi since that is her speciality. And reversals are distributed to the VF cast sparingly so you would destroy the balance if you gave everyone a DOA5 style hold.
     
  4. Mlai

    Mlai Well-Known Member

    That sounds like a really great system that Tecmo abandoned, IvorB. What you're describing reminds me of the flow in Bushido Blade 2, where parries didn't mean the action stopped (unlike Soul Calibur series where a parry stopped the action), but simply altered the flow. It was quite cinematic, rather than gamey, and I can imagine what you're describing to be even more so. Like watching an old kung fu movie.

    Making a DOA character to do a more complex motion like QCB+button in order to perform a DOA5 style hold... sounds like the right compromise. Holds would then still be powerful, but it doesn't tread on Aoi's turf because you can perform Aoi's reversal in a split second as long as you properly read an opponent. Also DOA5 style holds have longer window and recovery, making it easier to punish if whiffed.
     
  5. CheekyChi

    CheekyChi Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    CheekyChi
    There are "4" levels of holds in the latest DoAs.... VF has 3.
     
  6. Mlai

    Mlai Well-Known Member

    4 levels? Do you mean DOA separated out jumping attacks as its own level?
    AFAIK, lots of VF reversals consist of a single level of high/mid, using the same command but a different animation comes out depending on what attack it caught.
     
  7. nou

    nou Well-Known Member

    DOA2, 4 and 5 have it where you press forward and H for mid-kicks.

    There are low reversals in VF. Aoi's reversal game is years ahead of DOA's system.
     
  8. CheekyChi

    CheekyChi Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    CheekyChi
    Dreamcast version both mid kicks and mid punches was the same command, so I see why he's a little confused.

    i think it was from 3 (or DoA2: hardcore the ps2 version) where they split mids into different commands... So basically if your mid attack was hitting with your upper body, you would use 4+H, for mids that use your lower body it is 6+H.
     
  9. Pltnm06Ghosty-J

    Pltnm06Ghosty-J Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Pltnm06Ghost
    To sum up Hold levels in a more visually pleasing manner:

    [7][+][G] = High Hold
    [4][+][G] = Mid Punch Hold
    [6][+][G] = Mid Kick Hold
    [1][+][G] = Low Hold

    This system is present in DoA2, 4, and 5. The other DoAs had everything but Mid Kick Hold, so there was basically 3 levels back then that practically made it too easy to counter everything. Here's to hoping the 4-Point System sticks.

    Regarding VFxDOA, if it ever happens, let AM2 handle the core gameplay and Team Ninja take care of the presentation and flashy stuff. But when push comes to shove and only one developer has to work on it, I vote for Team Ninja to make the game so long as AM2 heavily supervises development over the balance.
     
  10. Mlai

    Mlai Well-Known Member

    One thing I really liked about DOA series, part of what made the gameplay feel really organic, is how long you can delay between each attack in a string. Every single fighter can delay almost to the point of Jean. It makes you feel that the character is catering to you, rather than you having to adjust to the character.
     
  11. CheekyChi

    CheekyChi Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    CheekyChi
    Yeah, it helps mix ups otherwise holds would be too powerful. The thing I love about DoA is how good it was to hit the opponent and how explosive it felt. I think every character has one or two delayable strings in VF, not just Jean - or do you mean his charge attacks? I think I'm going to need to play some DoA after all this talk...
     
  12. nou

    nou Well-Known Member

    everyone has delayable strings in VF...
     
  13. Mlai

    Mlai Well-Known Member

    You can "delay" in VF but not to the point of visual significance like in DOA.
    The "delay" in VF basically amounts to "I don't need exact timing to not flub this chain of attacks unlike say in SSF4 chains."
    As for selling hits... I think DOA is the first franchise to really go nuts on the different states of stagger, outside of boxing games. That really helps the game feel organic.
    VF5FS seems to take a cue from this love for stagger animations. Even if it's just visual.
     
  14. nou

    nou Well-Known Member

    Wow.....
     
    Pai~Chun and Elite like this.
  15. cobratron

    cobratron Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

    Have u even seen a VF delayed string? Its dramatically different than a fastest input string. You can walk ur cat in the middle of delayed string inputs. DOA5 is alot slower than FS so everything looks delayed even during full speed strings.
     
  16. Mlai

    Mlai Well-Known Member

    Hey, I know that once your skill increases, the miniscule delays in VF strings look big. Especially since it affects gameplay at that level of reaction time.
    But we're talking about new player base here. VF string delays are tiny compared to DOA delays.
    So act incredulous all you want. You're speaking from the viewpoint of skilled VF players. I haven't forgotten what it felt like when I transitioned from DOA2/3 to VF4EVO.
     
  17. MarlyJay

    MarlyJay Moderator - 9K'ing for justice. Staff Member Gold Supporter

    PSN:
    MarlyJay
    XBL:
    MarlyJay
    They're not miniscule in FS. They're delayable to the point where it's hardly like a VF game. Like more than half a second for a lot of moves. Sometimes the time you can delay is over double the speed of the actual move. The difference is huge.
     
  18. CheekyChi

    CheekyChi Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    CheekyChi
    I got hit by one of Lion's double kick last night, the second one was delayed so much I fought he ended the string prematurely, then the second one comes as I try to elbow him. I've never seen that before most people I've played against just does the move as fast as possibly so that was new to me.
     
  19. Mlai

    Mlai Well-Known Member

    Now multiply that by 2 for every DOA character.

    #1 I'm not saying VF strings has no delays. I'm saying compare it to DOA.
    #2 I'm not saying VF is not as good because its delays aren't as huge. They're different games and DOA needs the huge delays to accomodate its counter/hold system.
     
  20. CheekyChi

    CheekyChi Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    CheekyChi
    Nah, I think you're exaggerating it a bit too much.
     

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