Nobody ever suggested MTE was easy to do. And as for the time limit:

Actually, in VF5 vanilla you had 21 (10 pre, 11 post) frames in which you could enter a valid Throw Escape input. VF4 had a similarly sized window.

Isn't it more like 1.3/3 of the triangle? LTE only has 33% chance of success, not 100%. But in any case, you go on in length to describe why MTE is much harder to perform than LTE, which is a waste of everyone's time because -- in case you haven't noticed -- we all agree!

But you can't press a button when:

• the throw is guaranteed, or
• you're frozen in an evade, or
• you're frozen in the recovery of a missed attack, or
• etc

So would you like to see a situations where a guaranteed throw equals a RO, and the opponent could do absolutely nothing about it? The fact is, pressing a button in the above listed situations yields you nothing. This is why I previously said you're missing the bigger picture of how TEs fit into the overall philosophy of play if you only focus this single aspect (LTE) in isolation of other gameplay elements.

Nobody was focusing on TEs until you brought it up And if anything, your suggestion literally reduces the options in the VF triangle. You're taking the game back to VF1.

You've gone to length to support what I was saying -- lows near a wall can get you killed. I only brought them up as a reminder that there's ways to breakdown the lazy LTE'er, even when not in proximity to a wall with lows that knockdown (sweeps, etc), stagger, side turn, etc.

Fair enough. That still doesnt equal the time you have to input a lazyTE (all day long).

you are embellishing LTE percentage, just like when i didn't account for some characters having 5 throw directions in MTE.

Many characters in FS have most/all of their 'good' throws stacked in one direction. Even chars with the best throw game, like wolf, have their good throws stacked in two directions at best (other than a low life situation, i'll eat a neutral throw all day before an F5, burning hammer, or giant swing, tyvm ).

Of course there arent any hard statistics (that i know of), but because of stuff like that, there's little reason to believe that general usage of throws is 33% for every single throw for anyone in the cast, which, combined with all the rich defensive tech in FS, is why blocking is strong and throws are weak.

Even if the number actually is 1.3/3 of the vf triangle, like you mentioned, thats still greater than 1/3. You're only further proving that throws are, in fact, weakened in FS and is causing imbalance in the VF triangle. The more effective throw escapes are (like Lazy TE, and like others mentioned, espescially MTE late into a VF game's life where people can more easily input 3 TEs), the more that the balance of VF triangle fundamentals are thrown out the window.

TL;DR, throw escapes, by the very nature of how they work (as an option select), naturally only work AGAINST the VF triangle, the fundamental basis of what VF is built around.

Your quote, if anything, only further proves that point.

The only reason why i took all that time to talk about MTE at that point was to describe why i actually like and accept MTE as a throw escape mechanic that's actually good for VF (unlike LazyTE). I would have thought you would have agreed with that stance? Maybe I should have been more explicit in saying that, so that's my fault.

Yes, I said MTE was made for people who didn't want to use the triangle (and i still stand by that), but I feel that the more limited/restrained throw escapes are, the better it is for VF as a game.

The fact that MTEs took so much effort to use, and essentially could only be used in a very specific situation (reverse nitaku, couldn't really be used during neutral, unlike LazyTE), and more often than not, led to people getting 1 or 2 TEs in those situations. The problem with MTEs is when people start landing 3 or 4 on a regular basis, which essentially makes throws extremely weak again, only good for being used as damage-less position changers, like Tekken. This could easily fixed by making a hard-coded limit for max number of TEs in MTEs (if VF6 has MTEs, and where only max 2 MTE inputs, that would be great for the game on a ton of levels).

The less effective TEs are, the less they affect the VF triangle (which i think is better). The more effective they are, the more they break the VF triangle (do you really want systems where people can actually make 4 TE inputs out of 6 TE directions (or as you mentioned, out of 5 for some chars)? C'mon :/ ).

Do you get a chance to "evade" a launcher when someone blocks your launch-punishable sweep?

Evades are essentially the same as guard on the VF triangle (they lose to throws and (half/full-circular) lows).

They are higher risk (unlike guard, they lose to full circulars.....unless you're playing FS, where ETEG is stupid good, making most K+G's useless! Plus, why not throw a TE in there to OS my way out of throws too, while i'm trying to block something completely different? "Rich tapestry of defensive techniques" making FS great, right?), for potentially higher reward (added frame advantage, making some moves PPK punishable when they are normally reverse nitaku; incredibly inconsistent to be useful in most cases, which is why most people just use guard instead in most situations).

So, if guard and evade are on the same level of the VF triangle, why shouldn't throws beat evade? So if you're "frozen in an evade", you SHOULD get thrown, that means you guessed wrong during reverse nitaku by expecting to evade a button. That's how the triangle works. The devs made throws 'full circular' for a reason.

And if you actually whiff a move close enough to someone where they can actually throw you "in recovery of a missed attack", i would laugh and say you deserve even more to get thrown at the very least, lol.

Yes, if they are standing near the ring edge and put themselves in one of the guaranteed throw situations you mentioned, why shouldnt they get rung out? Sounds like a good read to me.

When i was speaking of focus, i meant "in game" focus, and I'm sure my context was pretty clear. Again, if you want me to, I'll just be more explicit about it from now on. And you think TEs were the only changes that happened between VF1 and VF5FS? c'mon man

Yeah, again, you're proving my point by hanging on to fringe/uncommon situations for lows. Again, if i'm not near a wall, which happens to be 90% of the time in most VF matches (yes, even in taco/octagon stages), do I have to worry about eating a full combo from a NH sweep in the middle of the ring, like what happens Tekken? No. (unless you're fighting Lion)

And as far as staggers, side turn, sweeps, etc, Those fall under what I mentioned in my last post. You've done nothing to disprove that high guard+LazyTE isn't extremely powerful.

Bruh, if you're a VF player and don't realize how the VF Triangle is the center of the game, then I dont think me telling you is going to help. If you truly believe thats the case, then I would say go and find out for yourself how each of those mechanics relate into the system. Its a big reason for the beauty of the game (and why Yu Suzuki is a genius for coming up with it); exactly the type of beauty that other games lack, where all the system mechanics flow together naturally, like water. Why do you think VF feels and plays so much differently than other games, particularly other 3d games like Tekken?

Thank you, this man gets it, people Thanks Lefty, you said it way better than I could with another 10000 word post

I'm not going to go into another blow-for-blow, quote-and-reply exchange again but I found this particularly interesting:

This is a great analogy, but probably not for the reasons you think! @BLACKSTAR hasn't just embraced the foundation (the VF triangle), he is essentially saying it's the only thing you need. Because other elements built on top of this foundation -- in this specific case, Throw Escapes, -- make the game worse off in his opinion. This is the point I, and @Unicorn, were trying to make that in only focusing on one aspect, you neglect the bigger picture, and more importantly the impact on the rest of the game if you simply remove one element, just because you think it's better without it.

The VF triangle at it's core has not changed. That is, Attacks > Throws > Guard. Over the evolution of the series, we've seen branches from this triangle take shape with the introduction of evades, reversals, sabakis, attacks with built-in evasive properties, etc, which let you "break the rules" when used at the right time, either in isolation or combined together (evade + throw escape). In my opinion, the VF series has always gotten better with these changes by deepening the guessing game, but obviously, not everyone sees it that way. And that's OK!

But from an objective standpoint, the fact that LTE has made nitaku defense, and more specifically throw escaping, "mechanically easier" to execute, doesn't mean the chance for successful throw escapes have changed in any significant way. Unless, of course, your entire argument is based on the fact that with throw escapes being easier to input and less risky means it's more accessible to "lower" skilled players, then that's a separate point altogether (on the benefits of making the game more accessibile, and that has been discussed to death).

Don't know where you got this from.

First thing i'd say, look at any of my posts, and i never said VF triangle was the only thing you need. Nor did I say that "all other elements make the game worse off". Never. Nope, not one time.

I said it was the center of the game, which was a point that was explained even better by @leftylizard, a guy who i already said understood and summed up exactly what I was saying better than even I could explain it. (If you want to know the point I was making, just read his post again.)

That the VF Triangle is the foundation of the game. Center does not equal "only thing in the game". Foundation does not equal "only". You are attempting to put words in my mouth to use that as a foundation for your argument's credibility.

Second, addressing both this and @Unicorn's argument as well, you guys are saying i'm looking only at the smaller picture, when I have already address the bigger picture several times. Stuff like how other mechanics fit in the larger scale with the triangle at the foundation/center/whatever. But the thing we were talking about were throw escapes; all the other stuff is essentially a different topic.

I don't think I should have to explain the entire VF engine's available mechanics and how they relate to the triangle to a couple of vets. You guys are trying to make VF out as a Frankenstein-like set of randomly-thought-of mechanics glued together haphazardly, kind of like the AM2 guys just throwing random stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks. That's how other fighting games work, but not VF. Why do you guys think the game feels so different and 'well-crafted'? Its because the Triangle is the foundation; the one concept that the AM2 guys always think of or at least consider when looking at the mechanics in the game. Why do you think they did stuff like get rid of Throw Clash?

So rather than me not seeing the bigger picture, your replies show me that you guys see a bunch of trees, rather than the whole forest.

But if you guys don't see it, if you don't agree with it, thats fine. But the results speak for themselves. It's no secret that FS is not well liked by the world VF community compared to other versions, particularly with the vets. It was, still is, and always has been that way since the game's release. It's that way for a reason. You and Uni can defend the mechanics for the simple sake of argument convenience if you want, but you can't re-write history.

The crux of the (my) entire argument has been that "all the other stuff" is closely coupled to Throw Escapes. I'm trying to remain as objective as possible, so putting all personal preferences aside (i.e. I don't care if you like/dislike TEs), all I'm saying is that you risk transforming the game in a really fundamental way by removing Throw Escapes from the system, and nobody can say definitively that the game will be better for it.

Just curious, but what evidence do you have to support that "FS is not well liked by the world VF community compared to other versions"? Every new iteration or version sees the same cycle of crticism repeating, so there's nothing new there. But in terms of tournament support, official or 3rd party (as part of a major), then I don't recall any version being as strong as FS was. Even if I take a quick look at the user registration data here on VFDC:

• VF5 Ver.B (PS3): 333 registrations (Feb 2007)
• VF5 Ver.C (360): 339 registrations (Nov 2007)
• VF5FS (Announcement): 353 registrations (Feb 2010)
• VF5FS (PS3 and 360): 468 registrations (Jun 2012)
  • Interestingly, there was another spike of 476 registrations in Aug 2012, probably coinciding with VF5FS being at Evo in July 2012.

For other stats, similar trends exist with new Posts and new Threads over time. Each three peaks represent the release of VF5 Ver.B (PS3), VF5 Ver.C (360 with online) and VF5FS (PS3 and 360). In each case, VF5FS has a higher peak value:

Spoiler: Posts

Spoiler: Threads

Of course, having enough interest (initially) in the game to make you want to register on VFDC is not a sign of interest level in the game today. But the fact is, today is the longest period we've gone without an update to the VF series, so it's not unexpected nor surprising that overall interest in the game is low. But I argue that has little to do with the FS system, and more to do with time, human nature and the novelty of other "new" FG versions. Even when you compare to previous VF5 titles, user registrations and general activity all drop off over time. I've seen the exact same trend repeat time and time again, so FS is not an anomaly.

In Sydney, Australia (where I live) we've had monthly tournaments going for a few years now, and in our official Victory Road leauge which commenced this year, we just concluded October's tournament last night where we had a record 17 entrants. From my point of view, things are looking pretty damn good for such an old game disliked by "the vets". So why re-write history when you can create your own?