2KK: A Cautionary Tale

tl;dr Spamming will bite you in the ass like it does me.

Although I've fallen more-so in love with Virtua Fighter's online play than I ever expected, and even though I've been happy to learn so much and meet so many great players, I'm very, very new to fighting human beings, and even more new to fighting players above intermediate level.

Anyway, I wanted to post this message as a warning to new players that are picking up Pai: is an amazing attack, and there's a good reason that it's one of Pai's bread-and-butter, go-to attacks. It's lightning-quick, it hits low, and the second attack is a high sweep that will usually devour anybody that has the presence-of-mind to sidestep the first kick. Because Pai ducks when she does it, she slides under high attacks, and, if the first kick lands as a counter-hit (when your opponent is doing an attack -- usually a high that you're sliding under -- or is back-dashing), the second hit is guaranteed. Even if your opponent blocks the high sweep that follows the low kick, they're pushed far enough away from you that it's difficult to punish.

It's definitely one of the better moves in the game, and there's no reason not to use it to interrupt high strings... It's super, duper deadly. If you're anything like me, you're going to become so used to that attack landing that, as you grow as a player, it'll become second nature to you -- something that you do without thinking, especially when you're in trouble -- and that seems to be the case with a lot of other Pai's that I fight. Personally, is like my panic button, and I use it the way that a lot of players use ; if I feel like I can get away with it without eating a mid, I'll do it, because it's so quick, and, unlike , it can't be blocked standing and can get my opponent onto his back.

The problem is that, although low-level players tend to eat both kicks because they're stunned by the speed of it, and although intermediate players will either block the second kick or duck under it for long enough that you keep your advantage, I've been learning that high-level players that are used to fighting Pai will turn this long-trained habit into your worst enemy, and, if you're like me, by that time it'll be such a compelling habit that it'll be very, very difficult to break.

You see, even if the first kick lands as a normal hit, the opponent can duck under the second, let alone if they block it, and skilled players will even duck beneath the second kick after side-stepping the first; in my experience, many high-level players will never, ever get hit by the high sweep unless the first kick lands as a counter hit, in which case it's guaranteed. Once the opponent ducks beneath the high sweep, they have about 27 frames to do with you what they please, which usually means a free launch that can eat up half of your health bar in some cases, but which will usually take a very large chunk of your health -- and it's frustrating to know that you're giving them that much damage ~for free~ because you can't help but throw out in situations that you'll learn are not ideal.

Even in the intermediate levels, I would rarely get punished for throwing out in non-counter-hit situations, but I would tell myself that it was a fluke -- and it often was -- and that you'd have to be crazy good to think fast enough to punish it consistently, and so it was worth the risk. Well, here's a spoiler: some day soon, maybe ~you'll~ be playing better than you ever imagined you were capable of, and the people that you're fighting ~are~ going to be crazy good, and, yes, they will see coming a mile away and will make you wish that you'd have wielded the attack's power more daintily from the beginning instead of acting like it was a Get Out of Jail Free card that you'd always be able to rely on. Many, many players that I've fought, lately, will ~never~ get hit by the high sweep unless it's guaranteed, and they make me suffer for acting without thinking. I've become my own worst enemy.

Anyway, if you're learning and getting better as Pai, I implore you to use as a conscious counter-measure against high strings but not as an all-purpose 'get the Hell off of me' measure. You don't want to deal with breaking the addiction, later, like I'm having to do.

Good luck with your matches, and sorry for going on so long. I just wouldn't wish this embarrassment on any other Pai players, haha, and wanted to put my two cents in!

-David

 

There are many mix ups that Pai can use to make people think twice about ducking the second K. Since are already holding down you can do Pai's or Pai's ws to force them to stand up and not crouch on reaction as 2 examples. If you are really good at reading people do a low throw on reaction doing would give you an awesome looking combo after the low throw or you could just do to flip over their shoulder for a free , before they can turn around.

Pai's game is all about mix ups Pai is at a slight disadvantage on hit for just doing by itself but you have options to apply mixup after a blocked as well. This is important to know because you can evade after it but mixing up some sneaky attacks after will leave your opponent mixed so they won't know if you are going to evade right away or not. I personally beat the , habit out of my system so I won't spam it unless I play stupid but there are other good lows in her arsenal aside from , a Pai player should be using as well like as 1 example it gives Pai frame advantage on a normal hit puts Pai at a frame disadvantage on normal hit.

 

What Shadowmaster said....

 

@Shadowmaster Yes, of course; I love punishing players that will consistently standing-guard against the second kick by baiting them with and then throwing them (Pai's from-crouch is a hot 60 damage) or, if they crouch under but don't , hitting them with either a low-throw or a rising-from-crouch . This post is just about the dangers of thoughtlessly throwing out both kicks because, at the novice and even intermediate levels, it seems so good for giving yourself a little bit of breathing room. If you compulsively throw out when you feel like you're in danger, you're going to get into a whole mess of trouble, which is what I wanted to warn newer players than myself about. Lately, it's been my biggest bad habit.

-David

 

Any of you guys ever use as a frame trap to follow up with something like + and then follow with a + to combo like shadowmaster suggested? It doesn't work all the time and is very situation based, but it seems like you can get a couple of during the match, and if you get the sequence right, you can get off a 85-110 dmg combo..

Ans yeah, I'm trying to replace with just or even something like a +

 

It is a good set up but we should try to stay on topic though. She has many potential setups like that. That is why pai is so dangerous in the right hands. I trained myself to dramatically reduce my use of the , spam in VF5 vanilla so it was easy for me to do it now. Not everyone was as fortunately as I was though to play the 360 version of VF5 before FS came out unfortunately.

 

The biggest advantage that move has is the speed of the first . Other than that, is superior in every way. The follow-up of that move is a special high, which means that if they try to attack low while you're executing it they will get hit. You can also charge it and make it a mid while it goes over low attacks, you can go into Bokutai, follow up with hakkeshou or where the latter P is also a special high and leaves you BT, or for a launcher if they duck.. Much more options instead of giving your opponent a launching party.

is a pretty bad move compared to . It leaves you at a big disadvantage if blocked, and the second is so predictable that using is prone to getting you in trouble instead of helping you. . The disadvantage on block is so big even, that if you don't follow-up the second , they get a free low grab or free launcher on you if they react accordingly. On hit you're also at a disadvantage, so, maybe your best option to follow up would be if it hits.. Better would be to avoid this move altogether, unless you're sure it's going to be a counter hit.

 

I am starting to use 2 against more of the mobile players that move around a lot since the second kick is a circular. I have really lowered my use of it as a safety move replacing it with 3. The range isn't there, but it can do wonders with mashers, it helps control your spacing, keeping you at a comfortable mid range to poke with and also controls where you are in the arena. So many times I've hit that move to get a ring out, it pushes back soooo far even on block.

 

Exactly Marly that is why mixing it up is so important if you insist on using 2K often. You should know all your options if you want to use them to confuse your foe. Lately I have been jabbing with 2P more since it is a faster move frame wise and it continues to teach me to stop using 2K too much. I just mix 2K into my game every so often to keep the person guessing. I used to always use 3P and the follow up options after it make it more favorable when I want a quick low when I think it is needed. There are so many things I know about that I keep forgetting about until someone brings it up here. That is why I stick with Pai still even now.

 

for me is just what marlyjay said. Always I do it hitchecking for CH.

 

I find the move to be amazing as well. With that being said 80% of my opponents will know a high kick is coming duck that and pai can get punished with a combo or throw, it can be bad to. I also notice, when im having a bad day on VF (as in i seem to be playing bad atm) i tend to be using 2KK alot. 2KK is great for evaders, they'll evade the first K and get CH on the second K. As for using 2K i feel it's slow and the opponent usually has the upperhand on me when i only use 2K weather i hit that or it's blocked.

I've been usuing the general old fashioned K+G, and let me tell you, it's lovely to say the least, deadly and it's a flashy hit . Even thought that hit has nothing to do with this... lol. I can see where Marly has a point with only usuing 2K mostly all opponents will hit right after you do the 2k so you probably could abare and maybe get lucky with a launcher. I can defiantly see the the opponent ducking after 2K but the problem is,if it's like my usual opponents they won't duck, just go straight to attack. I'll have to check out just usuaing 2K in games and see if it works for me.

 

Hey Shadow.. you do know this move is not hit confirm-able and she is -15 or more on block?

 

Yeah 2k fast but even if it's hit or evaded i feel like im at a big disadvantage

 

That is why I don't use it too much mixing it into my game every so often. I rather use 3P for a quick lows when the frames allow it. This is an old post though I use it less now than I did when I made this post earlier. I reserve this special tactic for people that don't recognize I am at a frame disadvantage and every so often but not alot. I also mentioned that I don't spam it unless I am playing stupid and lazy (online against bad players basically) why are you bringing up such an old post anyway?

 

I never brought it up. Some one bumped it

 

The more you use 2KK, the more you don't know how to play Pai.

 

The more I use 2KK in your evades the more you get mad the more I beat you.