A Brutal Aoi, or Cerbral Aoi?

This is in regards to humans and CPU: Should the Aoi priority
be to attack and set up her throws, or simply to use her admittedly
nasty series and combos and throw when the opportunity arises?
Having just started with her, I want to learn her completely, but am
still having that brain-freeze when I try to in-fight make up my mind
how to use Aoi. I feel I'm somehow short-changing if I don't use the
throws, and if I lose I think it's because I didn't concentrate on throwing.

Also, is it best to go for the down-attack or the down-throw? It seems in
training mode that if the down-throw d/f P+G is inputted IMMEDIATELY after a knockdown
(but with a dash, because you're often too far away to connect the throw), the
throw damage is increased significantly as opposed to doing the down-throw
a second later. And if the opp. requires a dash to get to then obviously the
window for the higher damage is closed, so shouldn't you just do for the up-P
down-attack? I LOVE the way the up-P down-attack looks, by the way...definitely
one of the prettier down attacks, right there with Lei's up-P.

I am very desirous of learning the secret of a good throwing game, especially
the down-throw, unless it is merely stylistic and not applicable to higher-level
Aoi's, who rely on perhaps d/f P as a finisher for knockdowns. I'm really enthused
about Aoi and want to play her correctly.

 

Aoi can be played eaither way you want. Shes got some nasty crumples to start some easy combos but they are very readable. Her ,++ starts slow but crumples and you can throw in ,, for some decent damage. She also has ,++ it crumples and you can throw in the usual ,,,+ although you have to press the + a little later for it to hit. Another crumple she has is ++, , the first hit doesnt crumple but the will and as usual you can give em the ol ,,,+.

You should use her elbows alot wich come out fast and do some decent damage. Look into Chanchais Aoi elbow guide for more info. Aoi has alot of good throws going for her, one of the most popular being her ++ because of the guaranteed + after. it also switches position with your opponent so its good if your about to be thrown out of the ring. Her ++ and ++ throw combos are nice but can be throw escaped during the actually combo part.

She has one of the best combos in the game (in my opinion) because you can switch the to , you can go striaght to her yy stance to counter most high or mid hits and you can sidestep right out of yy to dodge low attacks or shoulders and elbows. She can G-cancel her to confuse opponents and leave them open to another throw.

Well thats all i can think of. Of course good old Gaijinpunch will come and post here so listen to him as i hear he has a very very good Aoi.

 

I've read the dojos and most of the threads here, but like most
anything you're exposed to for the first time, you're not sure
what is being said: for instance, there was a running conflict concerning the
YY stance and reversing; which is best, for what level, so on. I keep
thinking reversing is not so difficult, but I'm not learned enough about
where the attacks are hitting to reverse.

Still, any thoughts on the down-attack versus down-throws? Is the down-throw
more worthwhile, or merely florid if it doesn't go for big damage after or as
part of a combo?

There is much work to do with Aoi. Being a chivalrous man I'm overtly
cautious with the character, because she's a woman and I want to protect
her in some strange way. So even though I have used Aoi to 1st Dan Kumite, moreso than against
humans, I wince when she gets worked over. It's almost like I want to apologize to
her for getting her killed...

 

well throwing certainly should be done when the chance arrives, especially on Aoi's case, since your playing CPU familiarize yourself with the opponents attack to be able to utilize more of her reversal, as it is one advantage she has, coz she reverses most moves compared to other charcters, here are some instances where i use the down throw (+:

-when the opponent gets hit by Aoi's and does not QR/TR

-when an oponents back hits the wall

-and when doing moves that are not QR able / TR able
that when i use them.

also familiarize yourself in using her Yin Yang stance (++) or ++ after //+) this movement IMO is more effective than her dodge attack, it inashi's quite a few moves and while in stance if you press or she dodges an attack and you have an opportuniy for either +++, a + (NOTE: + is cancelable so if against a human opponent this can be very useful.

and also familiarize with her stomach crumble moves, crumbles on counter, and gives you an opportunity for a low throw (++ or ++) another move is + if hits then low throw again, if not i ussually follow up with then , or just the , and sometimes + (NOTE: after a stomach crumble input low throw command immediately, a slight moment and it may not connect), so basically you need a liitle offensive attacks, but mostly she relies on her throws and reversal, at least thats what i rely on, i use attacks and combos only to force an opponent to guard, so i can throw, mix up your throws but make better use of her + ~ +, and her +++or +++ (NOTE: there's only a slight difference between the two, but i prefer the second one where the last throw input is +, becausa it give me a chance for a weak down attack (), or if the opponent does not like to stand up too quickly + is alway a good choice.

that's about it, hope this helps for more info check out Gaijin punch's Aoi guide reight here:
Aoi guide hope i helped a bit, PEACE /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

My quickie guide isn't really meant for beginners looking for frame stats, nor people playing against the CPU -- just has some tricky moves in there that most likely won't get you anywhere in Kumite. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

A few notes though.
Any of the crumbles that Cooks mentioned, you can just do -- the will hit, no need to delay. I think it does the same damage as but have never really studied.

The only move I use in the arcade that Kumite players seem to fall for is . is NOT throw counterable, meaning the next will hit. The computer almost never falls for , unfortunately.

Down throws:
I generally only go for down throws when:
opponent hits the wall
after +
after I hit with + and they crumble
When Shun is standing on his hands -- go for ++.

Also what death_raven said about low throwing on crumble is true, but I generally make it a practice never to do that. I almost always go for guaranteed damage, as the throws are esacpable -- gotta remember... you might be playing against a person one day. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

I use the Yin-Yang(?) stance more often than reversals, because it's safer (it inashis high and mid single limb attacks). I then usually follow the inashi with ++, , or something that has a little range and is relatively safe. I usually use reversals during option select (R-TE, R-DTE), or when I've figured what the opponent will counter with. This is still guessing, even after you're familiar with the opponents habits.

Here are the conditions which guarantee a ground throw followup. Some of them were mentioned elsewhere in this thread:

Throws:
After , ++. You do not have to dash forward. Just execute the ground throw.

Reversals:
High/mid punch reversal where the animation is a high spinning chop that causes a flop. Again, no dash is needed.

High/mid kick reversal where the animation shows the opponent falling face up, with Aoi holding their leg. One example would be reversing Vanessa's ,++, or a mid rising attack after , ++ or any of her hit throws.

Elbow reversal (++) when the opponent's back is to the wall.

Wall combos:
Only if the opponent falls face down. According to Nutlog, there are some factors that can allow them to TR anyway, such as wall angle, height at last impact with the wall and damage of the hit for the last wall impact. I play it safe, so anytime ++, or +, knocks the opponent into the wall, I try the ground throw.

Any crumple:
, ++
++,
, +
, ++
++ (crumples on MC)
I don't think I've ever settled for the ground throw after a crumple, since there's the potential for increased damage.

Floats:
A dash is necessary after finishing a float with the second hit of , , which gives a guaranteed face up leg snap by way of half dash forward (f,f,d/f+P+G). So far, the only Aoi combo I've used that ends with , is:
+(MC)->+->
It's a little tricky for me. It may have to satisfy certain conditions, like lightweight only (or at most light middle weights). The + may not be necessary, but I used it for added reach.
According to Nutlog, ++ is possible to use for a slam, but it's recovery is a bit long and a good struggler can escape it.

Credit goes to Nutlog for testing most of this stuff, and posting it.

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
My quickie guide isn't really meant for beginners looking for frame stats, nor people playing against the CPU -- just has some tricky moves in there that most likely won't get you anywhere in Kumite.



[/ QUOTE ]
oops my bad on this part, but for sure there's a bunch there that can help him out. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

about the low trhow on crumble, i try not to do it as much, because it is escapable, but with proper mixing of moves most of the times those i'm up against (my friends) mostly dont expect it. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

Ah, thanks very much, friends. Very helpful.

For Gaijinpunch: my whole endeavor is to play people more regular. One of the reasons for taking on Aoi, Shun, and Lei more extensively, with Lion an interesting sidebar, is to counteract the poison of the too-many Jackys and Laus out there. As far as technique, I'm trying to emulate what I'm seeing on the MEDIA videos and such, rather than taking anything in Kumite seriously.

Are there good Aoi videos out there? I've never seen a professional Aoi or heard mention of a strong Aoi player, aside from GaijinP.

By the way, these 1st, 2nd, 3rd Dan throws and such: is the damage potential worth the potential to screw up the commands? The damage is (I can't tell what's going on with the Ver. C command list) around 60 for everything including the up-down-P+G followup? Or am I reading that wrong? Isn't it just as well to go for the back, d/f, or f/f P+G 50 point throws and a pounce of some kind? Or is the pounce not recommended because of the distance? Still, I just can't imagine getting off a throw that complicated unless I was forced into it because every other throw is being escaped, which seems unlikely.

 

well those throw chains/combos, where you input numerous throws is worth it if you mastered it, i mean if you can constantly finish the chain/combo, but if you're having problems with them in terms of command input her other throws will prove just as uselful, good luck in training.

 

Thanks for the awesome Aoi info on this thread.

The 3 dan throws aren't really that hard to do. The motions look like SPoD or something, but the timing is a LOT easier. The problem is, that they are relatively easy to escape. But I still do them.. they look cool as hell for one thing. But as somebody mentioned in some other thread, completing the throw at 2 dan, helps beat those escapers a lot.

As for crumples, I pretty much just stick to b,d/f+p . Others are good, but they don't come close to this. Although I'm thinking of moving away from this move, considering how it's been nerfed in Evo.

 

My Aoi definitely isn't professional -- just intermediate I would say. The Guerilla is just about the best Aoi out there. There are videos of him floating around. Go to my site and check out the Zepp Tokyo tournament as well as the Bay Area Cup Vol. 2 -- there are some Aoi vids there, although not many.

 

I think Aoi is definitely a character that require alot of experience in VF4 to use effectively. IMO she is all about confusing the opponent into setups for her throw attacks. For example, if your opponent like to do a + into a rising mid, then counter that mid attack instead of blocking it or ss to make him think twice about doing that again. Another thing that's really effective is tricking your opponent by not doing what's expected.. For example, , and then gets people alot for a crumble. ++ and then ++, for a crumble get's alot of people who are not familiar with aoi in my experiences. This will usually get people to block alot more cause they don't know what to do. Which will set them up for Aoi's throw game. This type of Aoi play imo is what i think is most effective for her. Hope this helps you get better with Aoi. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

<font color="aqua"> No I think she is almost for beginers because her moves are so easy to pull off for me. </font color>

 

Hell, no. Ease of move inputs means nothing. Shun has easy move inputs. Dhalsim has easy move inputs. Come to think of it, the only character in VF4 that has particularly difficult move inputs is Akira. But that doesn't necessitate everybody else into the beginner's bracket.

 

Her move inputs are amazingly easy, although I find to be a bit tricky from time to time. Now that the crumble move is +, if I goof it, it comes out as +, which is painfully slow if you do it when you don't want to.

The thing that's hard about Aoi, is that she doesn't have a lot of super high-damaging moves, even on a float. That's why she's for intermediate players. Also, getting straight what G-Cancels and doesn't can be a trick. She's not necessarily hard to opperate, but it took me a good month of using her against strong players to do any damage. It's paid off though.

Also, her evasive attack sucks shit.

She's generally considered pretty difficult to pick up around these parts. She's not like Lau or Jacky, that you can pick up and get lucky w/ a float and take off damage even from the following round!

Also, will not crumble if your opponent is just ducking. Has to be a counter. ++ is mucho better. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

In reference to version B/C Aoi, I feel like a big part of her game is convincing the opponent to not attack by being dangerous even when disadvantaged. She has a number of moves that support this: inashi, sabakis, G-cancelling, and . Her inashi parries many high and middle attacks and can be canned from certain moves. Her sabakis have the same sort of function, except they work better in certain situations. Her G-cancelling allows her to remain non-committal in her offense. The double stop is the fastest middle attack, great in -1 situations, and has good damage potential. These moves allow Aoi to convince opponents to defend more or to dodge throw escape--these are her opportunities to throw.

In version C, AM2 toned this down a lot by making her double stop throw-counterable, but in exchange her okizeme game was much strengthened.

 

Aoi and Vanessa are probably the most effective at creating that
hesitation, since I'd think as an opposing player you'd have to stop
for a second to see what stance they're in before attacking. There's
an advantage there. Even though back, df-P is ALWAYS mentioned
as a major set-up/stopper for Aoi, the move is gone in EVO. I'd hate to get
dependent on a move that no longer exists. Perhaps it isn't something
I should worry about, since I've barely learned how to play the game
properly. But the move is also hard to get off, like that down, d/f, f-P Chouwan of Shun's.
I can only get that off by pure accident.

By the way, with Aoi, is it better to evade-throw-escape or use the YY stance
and dodge? Since her evade attack is limited, does YY lead to more offensive
possibilities, or does the evade yield better opportunity? Or is what Aoi can do all dependent on
how the opp. has attacked during the evade/dodge? Again, going through
training mode, doing evade, throw escapes (and looking bad doing it) I kept thinking
reversing and YY would be better, but then I knew what the computer was going to do. Right now,
when I evade, Aoi doesn't seem to have the offensive weapons (aside from a throw) that can punish the
aggressor like some other characters.

 

is still in Evo, but it doesn't crumble. I think it staggers a bit on counter, but that's it. The new crumbling attack is a bit slower, as I"m sure you know. Don't worry -- it doesn't take long to get used to, so keep practicing.

One thing they've definitely added to her game is YY Offensive. or both crumble on (I think) minor counter, and when someone tries to throw you and they miss. Very good.

Practice +++ as the throw is guaranteed on counter in Evo -- that'll get you ready.

DON'T practice -- totally gone.

 

she has an attack from her YY stance? coolness
So + ++ is guaranteed? What about her on MC? You know a low throw is possible, but has it changed?

 

Low throw is guaranteed on counter with +. gives her a VERY good advantage on counter -- not sure if a throw (low or high) is guaranteed or not.