A closer look at the Counter Hit 3P scenario

After a brief conversation with Stl Tim on Shoutbox regarding this topic earlier today, I've decided to take a closer look at the Counter Hit > low throw attempt scenario for Aoi.

For those who don't know, Aoi's attack briefly forces the opponent to a crouch position for a certain number of frames on Normal Hit or on Counter Hit. But in this thread I will only take a closer look strictly into the latter scenario which is the CH outcome.

Aoi gets an 8-frame advantage for the attack that lands on CH. Now Shag had mentioned earlier in the Shoutbox that when in a forced crouch position, the opponent remains in "crouching" phase for about 4-5 frames before fully standing (thanks for the info, man). This phase added on to the initial +8f advantage actually has the opponent in crouching phase long enough to give Aoi an opportunity to execute a quick follow-up low throw. But a low throw isn't a guaranteed follow-up move to do in this scenario. Why? Because the opponent is not in a true -10 or worse disadvantage after the CH lands. That measly 2-frame window gives the opponent an opportunity to foil things in a variety of ways. So here's a look at the various outcomes and results I found in the dojo.

Matchup:
Attacking Aoi (recorded CPU dummy) vs. Opposing Aoi (me)

Recorded:
Attacking Aoi's actions:
(Counter Hit) > low throw ( in this recording session)


Opposing Aoi actions after CH within 2-frame window:
1. Hold down
Result: Opposing Aoi absorbs the CH , then Attacking Aoi executes low throw as expected.

2. Sidestep (either or )
Result: Opposing Aoi absorbs the CH , but avoids low throw attempt with the "failed evade" animation moving toward respective direction (?). The evade-cancel movement techniques can be done here as well.

3. Back dash
Result: Opposing Aoi absorbs the CH , but avoids low throw attempt during the back dash. But on the other hand, if Opposing Aoi does a crouching back dash here then she does indeed get low thrown.

4. Jump
Result: Opposing Aoi absorbs the CH , but avoids low throw attempt during the jump in any direction (forward, straight up, or backward). An ascending jump punch or ascending jump kick can actually hit with Recovery Counter or Minor Counter (mC) bonus if opponent attempts the attack early enough as he/she jumps forward toward Attacking Aoi.

5. Attack (Strike)
Result: Opposing Aoi absorbs the CH , but hits Attacking Aoi with a strike at basically any level (low, mid or high) along with the mC bonus damage. This includes a Normal Hit combo starter attack like , or , which can all be conveniently used in this scenario. Even the slow 25f circular attack can hit for mC damage here. Very surprising stuff.

6.
Result: Opposing Aoi absorbs the CH , then actually does a neutral throw on Attacking Aoi (??) which is escaped.

7. or
Result: Opposing Aoi absorbs the CH , then actually executes a From Crouch throw of the respective direction on Attacking Aoi. (?!)

8. Other throws (270-degree ones, half-circle chain ones, , and )
Result: Opposing Aoi absorbs the CH , then actually executes the chosen throw on Attacking Aoi (!!). But this scenario happens if and only if the chosen throw command by Opposing Aoi is inputted quick enough to beat Attacking Aoi's low throw input. Otherwise, Opposing Aoi gets low thrown.

As you all can see, the 2-frame window can change how things play out a great deal after a CH . And I would've never expected the kind of results I found for sequence #2 and especially sequences #5-#8. Those results are quite an eye-opener.

Kruza

 

Yeah. I'd add to that that your scenario with opponent using P+G is getting escaped because you've inputted 2P+G~5. Probably holding the buttons for enough time to count it as neutral throw.

I always thought it's kinda weird that having +7 with opponent crouching is actually worse in VF than having +7 with opponent standing.

- +7 opponent standing:
..Throw beats guard & evade. Loses to attacks.
.. Mid beats attacks. Loses to guard & evade.
Basically it's a simple 50/50

- +7 opponent crouching:
.. Throw beats evade. Throw whiffs opponents holding guard and loses to attacks.
.. Mid still only beats attacks while losing to guard and evade.
.. Low throw beats holding guard.
The opponent actually has more options since he can duck a throw. 33/33/33.
It's like a fuzzy situations where you can aply slower mids and the opponent is actually autofuzzying immediate stand throws.

 

Yeah. It's an odd situation to be at +7f or +8f advantage against a crouching opponent, that's for sure.

And I imagine a lot of these scenarios can be played out nearly the same way with Jeffry and his move, which also forces the opponent to crouch briefly with a 7-frame advantage on Counter Hit.

Kruza

 

Pai's P+K on CH squashes for any of her low throw options. Aoi of course has the jumping in P to set-up low throw as well now, but it's random and risky (even though you can mix-up with jump K as well for combo, if you have the spacing and they don't kick you out of the air).

 

Pai's move landing on Counter Hit presents a different situation as it guarantees a low throw follow-up being at a 13-frame advantage. In this scenario the opponent cannot do anything to get out except input a low throw command and try to guess the correct one out of the possible three choices to escape it.

Also, that move executes in 19 frames whereas Aoi's and Jeffry's executes in 15 frames. It's much tougher to land Pai's move for a CH in a competitive match in comparison to the other two. But it's a far less of a chance of success for the opponent to avoid further damage (or inflict damage back) against Pai if it does land for one.

Kruza

 

I remember someone saying that the best option after 3P CH is the sweep: beat attacks ( even low punch), evade ( can't ECD low guard in time ) and high guard. Not very rewarding and quite risky though.

 

This makes sense. Seems like a follow-up sweep would hit the opponent in more situations than any other option.

Kruza

 

Thanks for doing this Kruza . This is something I can incorporate into my gameplay.

 

This happens exactly like Jeffry 43P+K NH, opponents can still move as long as they don't hold G. Usually the opponents will go ETE to get rid of most possible choices, so low sweep or half circular should be good.