A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thread)

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>BEATING VANESSA; an Introduction</span>

It's not possible; I kept the below debate intact as it is entertaining and revealing.

 

I have a weird sense of deja-vu /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

You should write all this stuff in the wiki 'cause if you're starting a thread you'll get the usual reactions and we're going to be set for the usual park ride.

Also, Sebo for mod. Even if it's just for the vanessa forum, even if it's just a temporary priviledge, dude's hot and the threads could use some sorting around.

 

cool stuff!

thanks sebo

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

?

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A. She doesn't have a mid-knee class attack. If you can't see the issue here you're retarded.
B. Her punishment is shit until +17 on a standing opponent and +20 on a crouching opponent (which is really hard to do as well since you can't really buffer _).</div></div>/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif to hitthrow is her midclass knee attack. Sure, it doesn't do a hell of a lot of damage, but it works on all hits (even crouch guard, where regular knee class launchers float very low). It's also a solid punisher at +17. Again, damage isn't spectacular, but it's there.

In Ver C /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is the best punisher vs crouching opponents at +20.

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

Sebo, can i have your children?

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

<u>EDIT:</u> I stand corrected, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is mid and comes out at 17-frames, ergo it's knee class punisher.

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

She has a knee class punisher. End of story. It's not "unbiased" Edraug, it's wrong. I don't see why you argue that it isn't based on cross comparision with other characters or means of input. Also, Jeff toekick-splashmountain, isn't a natural combo fyi. Sebo should change the statements (even though he has an awesome new avatar) ;O

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

Yeah she does, I just need more time to edit that incomplete post.

I wrote that just as way to jab at "Jeffry Apologists."

I'm going to need to think about the mechanics behind that.

But I do have a thing for 47-chromosomes. <3<3<3

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

First post has been updated (haven't finish OS stance strings, but eh), and I've edited my second post to hold the other (yet to be worked on) half of the analysis.

Read it, give feedback, whatever.

Expect completion for DS by May at the latest. OS... read the end of the second post...

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

Excellent as always sebo /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

One thing, you should remind people that, yes, after DS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif throws will whiff, but catch throws won't /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif btw lion can meteor punch during the string - i learned by playing F1re Flood not to use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif vs lion /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif also there's a small typo in your text, you wrote "f+p,p+k" instead of "f+p,p+k+g", i guess you copy pasted because there's the same error twice.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is a 16-frames elbow. It's also a 2-hit string, a rarety for DS. It's also safe on block and it cannot be ducked under by bizzare tech-crouching moves. Although i'm a WS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif addict i do use this string in its buffered form against other vanessas (who don't expect the elbow), Shuns (no /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif plz), Pai (vs Bokutai which ducks most other mids), and Eileens (cause i'm slow at buffering and the move tech crouches, plus no ducking under this mid). Srsly, it's not bad, I'm sure that if we brainstorm a bit we can find a couple more uses for it /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

Generally speaking, this thread would be more useful to non-vanessa players if it was organized around the idea of "Here's her 5 common options in this situation, here's how to beat 4/5 of those options with 1 response", rather than the idea of "I don't want to play an overpowered character"

This is misleading - if /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif hits as MC, the vast majority of the cast cannot elbow to stop another one (which effectively means that they cannot do anything to stop another one except guard or evade). You also still haven't finished your homework assignment . . . .


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You block /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif at max range</div></div>

This is also misleading - range is irrelevant in most cases, as I have shown time and again. You also don't mention /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

It doesn't do that?

Hahahahahahahahaha.

I don't need to do that assignment. Now if you send it to me (I'm not gonna spend money on that [same reason why I don't have a 360]), I'll gladly do it, but it isn't necessary: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif when done at disadvantage (or neutral) will lose to a big mid. Of course 18 damage is just overpowered.

This is also misleading - range is irrelevant in most cases, as I have shown time and again. You also don't mention /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif
</div></div>

Second post hasn't been edited.

But the answer, which we've gone over, is to move forward and use your advantage and not blindly attack.

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

Second post hasn't been edited.</div></div>

Before we regress into the usual discussion i'd like to point out that you're both overlooking /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. The move has a a bigger pushback than /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif while we're at it). In fact i've tested a bit in dojo mode and the dummy can't throw me after it blocks the move, no backwalk needed.

Same goes for OS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif btw.

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

No, your post really doesn't do that. I'm giving you honest feedback, it still reads like a laundry list of complaints, not a how to beat vanessa guide.

Please spend more time on how to beat options 1,2, and 3 with 1 response (you do a good job of this when describing some of the strings), not "Duh, if you do specific thing A when she does specific thing B, you win" (you go off the rails here when it gets to e.g. hot button topics like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif).

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif . . . if you can't beg or borrow SBO, ask myke and nin about how shitty /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is, and about how no one gets hit with it repeatedly in high-level tournament play. Yeah, it doesn't do a lot of damage, but this doesn't really matter when you're spamming it to win the end of a round. I dont want to start another argument about the relative merit of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif's damage payoff; please just fix your post so its factual - elbow does not "eat it for breakfast", it does not beat repeated /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif if the first one MCs, end of story.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif "move forward and use your advantage." That's just the point, you don't really have advantage, despite what the frames say, because normal throws don't work...

The nice thing about /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is that the hit throw doesnt work right at max range . . .

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

If you eat a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif on counterhit you should just be glad the Vanessa player didn't do a better move (ie a move that actually does damage and/or gives better advantage). If the Vanessa player does another /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif right after you should be even happier.

About /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif there's a universal solution to it. Simply evade when she charges forward. Even if Vanessa cancels the kick, the evade will be SUCCESFUL and you'll have good frame adv.

If an opponent ducks the second hit in the OS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif (or any stance switch elbow) they have 17+ frames adv, something that should be noted.

The second hit of OS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif staggers crouch guard, so Vanessa is not is obviously not in negative frames when it hits.

I fail to see a reason to do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif outside of combos. You have several options that are much better. Also, the followup puts you at frame disadv on hit.

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

Omg it does? We should work towards integrating this information in the VF5 verc lists! Anyway, i haven't staggered an opponent like that yet but its not like i realy use the move frequently, it being throw counterable. Then again nobody seems to duck after stepping toe so why would i bother? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Lol can't win 'em all can she?

I tried answering in some detail but apparently i got my basics wrong, i apologize. I'll leave the detailed write-ups to the experts henceforth.

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

I hope you do know that doing dash in options is the same as giving up your advantage.

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

Wrong and wrong.

edit - forget dashing in, this is how you beat backwalking vanessas with jeff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXzrbm-OWc8

Exactly.

 

Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

Guess i was wrong /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif