A Novice' Questions on the "Feel" of VF4

a thing i've noticed; tekken players talk about custom strings; i think this is something you've got to avoid; if you have a custom string you keep going for, you're going to get killed. not to say tekken players' mentalities suck, but you can obviously see how memorizing a custom string is worse than memorizing a flowchart. it's better in most cases to talk about just doing 1 punch; you get initiative if blocked, and if the opponent ducks(and is slow), you recover faster, so you can get that elbow in faster, stagger them, then dash up and throw them with a jumping suplex and follow up with a ground kick. oh yeah, don't forget that low punch hits special mid(recognize this?) so you can't use it to bring your opponents to a crouch, and don't use the low kicks because i said this; they recover slow enough that mid attacks will hit you.

i guess vf compared to tekken is less emphasis on the combos themselves, and more emphasis on setting up your power attacks or throws. i agree with what chanchai said mostly though, he covered it well.

keep in mind that in vf very little attacks leave you safe, even the ones that do usually leave you at a slight disadvantage if blocked; the only one which will leave you with advantage even if blocked is the PG, or guard-cancelled high punch. even a blocked low punch leaves you at a disadvantage.

right now, you can go to virtuaproject.com for revision C frame data(but you won't find revision B frame data, which is probably the VF4 arcade version in the majority of US arcades right now, i know the one i go to is rev B cause Akira's infamous StDblPm combo does 50%)

uh, i think that's about it that i can think of; remember that you aren't supposed to press that hard even if you play strictly offense in VF because of the disadvantage in initiative even if attacks are blocked.

if you like near 100% offense games use either jacky, lau, or even akira(somewhat). sarah is more of a character whom you're supposed to toy with her midrange game as well as her up close game, and of course, her flamingo stance.

 

It seems that the replies I am receiving are becoming increasingly useful and complex! Thank you again, particularly those of you who gave me lengthy and detailed answers, a very interesting read!

Since I first started this thread, I can tell that my VF mentality has become a lot more "natural" for lack of a better word. The other day, I tried to tech-roll in Tekken by hitting the buttons I thought were G,P and K!

With respect to my VF game in general, it has vastly improved from my point of view, which wasn't very hard to do considering how lost on the game I was to begin with. I play Sarah in a very different way to how I first approached her, which was the pit-bull style of Tekken's Bruce Irvin. For those of you that know of his prowess, Bruce recieved ADVANTAGE on block and huge damage on counter on his simple punching and kneeing strings, which were the FASTEST in the game at 8-frames and 13-frames respectively! I have heeded the advice of many on this thread and play a more strategic Sarah, ie. a more dynamic and situational player rather than a mechanical and string-based one, and rely on better positioning and a little bit of range to win.

Thanks again to all those who took the time to post.

P.S. Could someone supply me with a DIRECT LINK to the Virtua Project frame data? I have been to the site and can only reach the news announcement of frame data availablility, I can't actually access them!

Thanks again.

 

Click on Sarah and go to the movelists section.

<a target="_blank" href=http://virtuaproject.com/virtuacode?pageID=movelist&xsl=virtuadot-4c&xml=vf4c-sarah>Sarah Movelist and Framestats</a>

 

I don't know if it's prudent to post virtuaproject links directly here, but I hope some admin will rectify me if it isn't.

Here's sarah's frame data, without navigation:
http://virtuaproject.com/virtuacode?pageID=movelist&xsl=virtuadot-4c&xml=vf4c-sarah&template=no.nav

You can access it through the front page by pressing first 'sarah' on the left size panel, then VF4c on the listing that comes up.

 

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With respect to my VF game in general, it has vastly improved from my point of view, which wasn't very hard to do considering how lost on the game I was to begin with. I play Sarah in a very different way to how I first approached her, which was the pit-bull style of Tekken's Bruce Irvin. For those of you that know of his prowess, Bruce recieved ADVANTAGE on block and huge damage on counter on his simple punching and kneeing strings, which were the FASTEST in the game at 8-frames and 13-frames respectively! I have heeded the advice of many on this thread and play a more strategic Sarah, ie. a more dynamic and situational player rather than a mechanical and string-based one, and rely on better positioning and a little bit of range to win.

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Well that's good, since Sarah is nothing like Bruce. Just out of curiosity, what made you think "Sarah = Bruce"? I guess it was all the knees?

If anyone in VF is like Bruce, I'd lean towards Vanessa, but since I don't play her I could be wrong there too.

 

Excuse me, but I'm just being nit picky about terms here because there is a difference and this is a thread that newbies will look at.

low punch is NOT special mid
low punch is special low-- it hits low and can be blocked while standing (there's a unique block animation vs. special low attacks)

special mid attacks are different
AFAIK special mids will stand up a character that is blocking low and not cause any damage. This is mostly new with ver C. I've had very limited experience with PS2 VF4, so there might be other properties to special mids that I'm not aware of.

Without bothering to check the virtuaproject movelists, I know the knee in Sarah's elbow-knee has been changed to special mid. Kinda sucks because it makes the elbow-delayed knee even less useful... but that's not really saying much... oh well...

 

So... Special Mid attacks are basically the same as "Guard-Full" attacks in previous VF games?

Special High attacks are high attacks that will hit low punchers, right? Will they hit any other crouching attack animations?

-Chanchai

 

This is the first time I've seen the term "guard-full" so I don't know.
Special mids are like special lows in that as long as you're holding G, you won't take any damage. Special mids have the extra property of forcing you to stand from what I've seen of them.

Special high attacks do not hit crouching opponents at all. They are high attacks. (The one exception is Kage's f,f+P+K+G flying kick which will hit a crouching opponent at its longest range but flies over crouchers at close range.) Special high attacks are attacks that knock down standing defenders. The only way to avoid them is to duck. Wolf's clothesline and Pai's running kick are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

 

"Guard-full" was probably one of the more unintuitive terms used in previous VF games. I don't even know if half of the old-timers even know what it is. But in faqs and what not, it referred to moves that could be blocked low, but it would usually stand the opponent up. An example was Lion's fc, f+P.

Regarding the special high, you're saying they are attacks that knock down standing defenders. But I swear I've heard the term applied in version C tweaks for moves like Lion's dodge attack which supposedly connects with low punchers.

Maybe it's time somebody wrote the book (faq) on standardized english terms as applied to VF4?

-Chanchai

 

In response to Mizkreant's post, I did not automatically assume that Sarah and Bruce were parallels across completely different games because they use their knees and elbows, whether they are similar or not depends purely on Sega and Namco - not the character's fighting style.

Basically, being knew to VF FAQ, I assumed that everybody's basic punching 1,2 and 1,2,3 strings were primary offensive tools (as they are for Bruce), and that they provided advantage on block and especially on hit. I had read in a VF quite a while back that punching flurries were good offensive tools, and had watched guys at arcades do nothing but low punch and rush at eachother.

For what its worth, I have found that the "rhythm" of VF is very distinct, and while it is very, very different to Tekken, I am slowly becoming more accustomed to it and learning to like it a little more than the fighting series which started me out.

Thanks again to all those who wanted to help this newbie out.

 

Special high attacks do not hit crouching opponents at all. They are high attacks.

Not really...special high attacks will hit/interrupt low punches, AFAIK, it doesn't interrupt low kicks.

 

Yupa wrote: Special high attacks do not hit crouching opponents at all. They are high attacks.

Alucard wrote: Not really...special high attacks will hit/interrupt low punches, AFAIK, it doesn't interrupt low kicks.

Yupa, you're confusing special high with strong high attacks. Special high attacks hit low punchers, like Alucard said. Strong high attacks are moves like Wolf's f,f+P.

 

i was just trying to make the tekken player understand me better- you don't hear tekken players talking about a move being special low very much. but it's interesting how you put the moves that force an opponent up to be called special mids...usually i'd just classify those as "force stands" much like those FAQs put it.

btw, if there's anyone in VF who resembles Bruce remotely, it'd be Akira or Lau;

think about it, Bruce does d/f+2, b+4,3,4
Akira does SDE(MC), DLC
Or Lau does Lifting Palm, PPPd+K

plus, Lau always rushes with lifting palm-P, a close equivalent of the 1,2 rush

I just maybe my comparison wasn't very good, but i think they bear resemblance cause Bruce always ends his combos with triple knee(Akira almost(i stress almost) always ends with DLC, Lau almost always ends with PPPd+K).

but i dunno, maybe vanessa bears more resemblance, but seeing how she has her dodging hook, it makes her look like Kazuya.

one thing's for sure though...nobody can do 3,2,1 on counterhit in VF4.

(sorry about that reference to tekken, hope i didn't lose anybody too far)

 

GLC did, IIRC.
Or someone did. A jargon faq's out there.
I was gonna, but didn't when I found out one was done.

 

GLC was writing the jargon faq on VF4, but he quit doing that at some point. Then Mr. Bungle seemed to have picked up that task or planned to (I think), but now his interest doesn't seem to be much in VF4 anymore....

So... I hope someone either picks it up or writes their own. What I am hoping for, though, is that somebody will either pickup the work or do their own and include the new jargon that have come along recently. Such as "special high attacks."

Maybe I should take the task myself, but I would only end up putting my own made up jargon in there and I don't think that would be proper. If I did that, then I would probably end up putting everyone else's jargon like Ice-9's and whoever else's.

A standard terminology guide would be nice, but for the most part, I don't want to deal with the politics of that.

-Chanchai

 

So what are you saying? you'd like to see a faq? spit it out son!

I guess I can sit down and write one. But it'd be really tempting to include old and unused jargon just for historical/entertainment purposes, and that would make the thing huge.
Maybe a jargon thread would be a bit easier. Everyone submits bits and pieces, with one massive post covering maybe the top 30 common terms to start.

 

Yeh putting the common terms would help alot. Im a very character dedicated person. Ive been using only Pai since VF1 and sometimes Akira. But when I either play against someone or we are talking about strats when ever they say something about what their character does I always ask them to physicly do the move or futher explain what they actually do. I dont really get online too much to look at the other chars stuffs. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

 

Hi i'm sorry....
but after reading some of the stuff on tekken here...
i just had to sign up and post...

Anybody memorizing custom strings and just using them ain't gonna get very far in high level tekken.

Which unfortunately it seems to be the way many vf players perceive tekken to be just that....

Custom strings are useful... but to a limited extent
more so for certain characters such as hwoarang etc

tekken tag and tekken 4 are also somewhat played a little differently so how should tekken be played?? depends also on version or series, how good ur manual dexterity and capablities are, how good ur reflexes, timing and anticipation is, how your opponent is playing and thinking...

it's not about pressing certain button combinations and just applyin throws...

hmmm.. this is getting rather difficult to explain...
all i can say is that u may probably need to get into the game yourself and find it out... and please try to bear in mind low - mid level tekken can be very- somewhat different from high level tekken and there are many little details that less experienced players will be able to appreciate or even be aware of....

For tekken4, it seems to be that because certain moves have such piority or some moves are not so balanced, it becomes more difficult to show these little setups and skill...most of the time, "skill" is shown by some hard to do move such as pauls double Just Frame Falling Leaf combo, but this can probably be attained with a certain amount of pratice and not be a really true measure... (however, kudos to whomever perfects it)
and IMO for t4 some of the more interesting matches come by when a highly skilled player versus a mid- high level player... thats when some of the crazy setups come in


Anyway enough of my crappy explanation...

i'm a vf4 beginner as well.. and i'm into Vanessa (Is she a good character for a beginner?? after her i think i may go Shun Di, Lei Fei or Jacky)
i've played virtuafighter a grand total of 3 times only

i've got a bit of problem
how do u prevent a match from becoming a crouching jab
to throw or low or ws move fest???
Vanessa's elbow sabaki is only a partial answer
u can only do it that many times, my opponents always find someplace to put in a low jab


What's the timiing to break throws?? do u need to anticapte it first and input the break at exactly the same time - say abt 5 frames after??
and what is the maximum no. of break inputs u can put it that gets registered by the computer?? issit 3??

It seems to be dat after blocking certain sweeps i can't seem to get any ws moves watsoever to connect although crouch throw seems to work but thats guranteed and my opponent kinda breaks out of it even when i mix it up sometimes...

what's the best option when vsing a flamingo happy sarah..
she uses some pretty safe way to get into it.. but i don't use her so i'm not very sure...

anyway mixups include some mid kicks, low kicks and throws as well as occansional sidestep kick...
i don't want to be too dependent on reversals either
Vannessa's b,f+k,p sabaki is too slow to start when up close
sidestepping has resulted in me being kicked

I also have some trouble with Lei Fei, but i'm still unfamiliar with him so i can't point out which moves are giving me problems

and also Aoi, my fren always uses some elbow cancels into throw but when i try to crouch jab her elbow beats the jab and gives me stagger, when i guard i usually eat some sort of throw

nmm.. maybe i'm in the wrong thread for asking so many questions .. so i'll stop .. although i got more such as "What are some of Vannessa's good combos for defensive or muay thai" or "what can i connect after hold G u + P connects on counter but i miss the crouch throw"

 

blah blah blah custom strings:
I just wanted to say that you're right, custom strings in tekken are kinda overrated. The canned combos in TK a far superior to home-made pokes /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
I actually didn't want to start a tekken discussion and freely admit ignorance, that should head off any replies in that direction.

On to your questions -
I don't know that Vanessa's a very good character for beginners, but she has a VERY tekken-y feel that might make her a good character for tekken refugees.
Jacky's a good character for complete beginners, as is Lau (another character who has jokingly been called "straight outta Tekken")

i've got a bit of problem
how do u prevent a match from becoming a crouching jab
to throw or low or ws move fest???

It's a strong flowchart, but everyone's got ways to deal with it. For most characters, f+P is a standard elbow strike that will stagger someone if it interrupts their low punch. But if you get hit by a move (or block it) and then try an elbow, sometimes a low punch will stuff you before the elbow comes out. Or let's say you just did an attack that isn't counterable, but it was blocked and it looks like a low punch is gonna hit you if you don't guard. What to do? If you guard after every blocked "safe" move the opponent will throw you eventually. If you don't guard, the low punch hits and you're in low punch guessing game hell.

So everyone has a few very useful moves that will sort of dodge and beat low punches (even tho the move is slower). For example lau's d+P+K or u+P will aways beat a low punch. Jeffry's b+K shot knee destroys low too. Shun's mule kick (u+K) does the same, although I think I read that in version C it no longer works as well. The point is: find the move that beats predictable low punches 100% of the time, even if the low punch is quicker than your move. Unfortunately I don't know Vanessa's. But I'm positive she's got one.

What's the timiing to break throws?? do u need to anticapte it first and input the break at exactly the same time - say abt 5 frames after??

That's exactly it, or close enough... you need to see it coming and strive to enter the escape at the same time, just before, or just after. But just after is a little risky, I shoot for just before and usually end up tapping the buttons at the same time as my opponent. Everyone had trouble with this when it was new in VF3, after a few dozen games you'll be good at it.

It seems to be dat after blocking certain sweeps i can't seem to get any ws moves watsoever to connect although crouch throw seems to work but thats guranteed and my opponent kinda breaks out of it even when i mix it up sometimes...

From Crouch and While Standing attacks are often NOT your fastest moves from a crouch. If you're playing vanessa, the fastest response to any crouching attack (including sweeps) is vanessa's low throw. I don't know what the next-best choice is. For most characters, that f+P elbow is the best response. People who seem to block everything you try can be outsmarted by a high throw. Blocked sweep ---> high throw is a VERY common VF trick. It's been around forever.

what's the best option when vsing a flamingo happy sarah..
she uses some pretty safe way to get into it.. but i don't use her so i'm not very sure...

I often feel the same way vs. the retarded CPU sarah, I know a real skilled sarah player would make me cry. I usually just do a simple high punch. A mid reversal is also a very good idea, if you have one. Something like 90% of Sarah's flamingo-only moves hit mid.

and also Aoi, my fren always uses some elbow cancels into throw but when i try to crouch jab her elbow beats the jab and gives me stagger, when i guard i usually eat some sort of throw

Your buddy's just outsmarting you by mixing up elbow cancel ---> throw with elbow cancel ---> attack. Here's a useful trick. When you see aoi cancel ANYTHING, mash on P+G. If you have good reflexes you will throw her before she can start her guessing game. You definitely need to be on the ball tho, if you hesitate the throw attempt will be too late.

For your vanessa questions, look for the "Character threads" post by myke. It's easy to spot his posts, his name is green. He also posts more Vanessa stuff than just about anyone, and I think he's mentioned some of her good combos and reversal followups.

 

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Hi i'm sorry....
but after reading some of the stuff on tekken here...
i just had to sign up and post...

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The misconceptions always seem to go both ways. VF players think Tekken is all strings and no flowcharts, and Tekken players think VF is a boring punch/low punch fest.

I, like many people, play both games. I don't think one is really that superior to the other, they just have a different feel. Tekken is more free flowing due to the lower recovery of most of the basic attacks. VF gets very technical because you often are at a disadvantage so you have to pick and choose your oppotunities well.

Some may disagree with me, but I think Tekken may appeal more to those who usually play 2D fighters like the Capcom games. The recovery time of most moves is not too long, so you can string together more attacks to use in setting up the opponent.

I have a personal theory that VF fans probably play a lot of RPGs. They like combing over the frame data and such...looking at the numbers... I dunno. Just a thought.