about frames

We (me and NEoChu) have been experimenting with the said rising attack breaks. I tried some of Jacky's moves and it turned out that for example P+K and f+P+K (both have 20 dmg on normal hit) worked against rising attacks. I also tried Akira's evade attack against Lau's full circular rising attack (can't be evaded) and it worked too.

But, like NEoChu said, DE and SDE didn't work. We're sorry if this was common knowledge and we're just being newbies but it seems that some 20 dmg moves have the ability to break rising attack while others don't. Also any move with 19 dmg or less hasn't worked so far. It looks like the weaker moves hit (on the right time) but whiff anyway.

 

In my opinion, throw escapes are essential. I mean, if you cannot throw escape, then you can always go for reverse nitaku, but when you become throw counterable, if you aren’t at least trying to escape the throws, then you are taking guaranteed damage for nothing. My biggest problem is that I can’t throw escape very well, and it becomes apparent that it is a necessity to use them when I play someone who is of equal skill to me, but can also throw escape. It just makes sense to reduce the chance that you will take damage, because no matter how good you make be at using other techniques, such as reverse nitaku, when you become -8 onwards, you can’t do anything other than use some defensive techniques.

Like someone mentioned earlier, it can't harm to learn how to do it.....

 

Somebody asked about how the PAL version works in 50Hz mode. Simply put: It's slower. It doesn't recalculate anything, it shows all the frames so doing move like Akira's knee is a little bit easier. Nobody actually uses the 50Hz mode because of this. It looks like slowmotion version of the game. In Tekken 5 the game recalculates what frames are shown on screen but in the backgroung it does have all the frames. It would be hilarious if the framedata would differ between different versions of the game. This isn't so much a problem anymore since almost all TVs support the 60Hz (NTSC) signal.

What comes to the discussed throw escapes, I think the original comment about focusing on offense first was meant to say "don't rush it". TEs, while being an essential moves later, are relatively hard to imply on gameplay right away. I played almost a year before I was able to actually use them in matches. I mean it just takes a lot of practice before they become a second nature. TEs just have to be practiced and someday you just might notice that "wow, I'm escaping throws like never before". It happened to me, one day I just started to get them a lot more than before.

 

Lol everyone's else + or (small pounce) beats rising kicks on MC also. Small pounce damage is only 13! I guess pounces have special properties to it.

 

DE and SDE Does MC rising kicks. It's just that its really hard as it has real short hit detection frames.

 

Hmph? Of course small pounce can beat rising attacks... because isn't the opponent still considered to be on the ground? The 20/21 damage rule only applies to breaking rising attacks.

At least this is how i understand it. (but with other attacks that do less than 20 dmg... i'm still lost)

 

When we say "beat the rising attack," we mean when both attacks connect at the same time, the one with bigger damage wins.

The interesting thing to consider though, is that it's so difficult to time your attack so that both attack's hit frames match that it's not really a reliable thing to do so.

Therefore, when people try to beat a rising attack, there are other methods of "beating the rising attack." For example, Jacky's + is a relatively fast mid attack with a long range and fairly long hit frame (3 frames). This means that when you use this move to beat a rising attack, in some cases you are hitting the opponent before their rising kicks have started their hit frames. In other cases, you are hitting them after their hit frames are over. The only way to see the difference is to check the flash that occurs. If it signals counter hit, then you most likely hit them before their hit frames occurred. Otherwise you will get a white flash signaling minor counter hit, meaning you hit them after their hit frames are over. There really is no way to see if a move really beat another attack (matched hit frames) except if you can program the controller to get it exactly right. So it's best if we go by the rule that Sega had given us.

Many attacks have strange properties that can "beat" a rising attack, it's not something that's always applicable, but it's just some cute tricks that you can pull every once in a while.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Srider said:


Many attacks have strange properties that can "beat" a rising attack, it's not something that's always applicable, but it's just some cute tricks that you can pull every once in a while.

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Such as.....

 

Yeah we know it's just a "cute trick" since there are better options to do than to find out the weakest move that can "beat" rising attacks. Anyway thanks for info.

It all started because we (well I at least) were under the impression that rising attacks can only be beaten during the active hit frames so you needed to have 21 dmg move in order to beat it. Now we know that is not the case.

By the way, when I was testing it out using Jacky's P+K I managed to hit on the same frame a few times. It caused both to land a counter hit (both receiving 30 dmg), so the 20 dmg move does not actually beat it. So I guess there is nothing overly strange in this anymore.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Such as.....

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the most incompletest list evah

Jeffry's a thug vs rising attacks.
I find really easy to nail rising attacks in certain situations...I'm thinking after his neutral throw particularly but I'm not sure without the game in front of me. Savvier fellas might tell you it's because knee has a goodly number of hit frames or something. I'd prefer to think that playing Jeffry requires you to know when it's knee time.

+ has something like 8 frames of hit detection & is Jeffry's OWNED move. The mental and physical effects of this move are...unrecoverablblble (honk if you get it). Impossible to twitch time since the move is so slow but the very threat of it sometimes can get you free stomps...try it after low throws...splash mountain...+,...there's probably a million more and these might not even be the best...perhaps you could say generally head or feet towards positions but maybe that's just where I think to try it. It's worth the gamble though since the worst you face is eating a rising kick generally & the reward can be something in the neighborhood of 6" of lifebar.

Akira has shrm and knee which have reasonable risk/reward. Snappy doublepalm is fantastic too...bodycheck is always fun but only worth a damn here because you just bodychecked someone.

Kage's is great. + mC's rising kicks. There's other goofy stuff my brother got from Dandy_J but I can't remember it offhand.

Lau's + & are both great for mC's with being totaly cake...just dash in, dash out viola! 30%+ lifebar gone...

...Sarah's works the same.

There are tricks out there galore. Many many many more...I remember a vid where akira (I can't remember oshu or homestay) 2/3 dlc over fallen pai (don't remember her ground position...maybe after + but I don't think so for some reason) and back throw after her rising whiffed...technically this is oki or maybe even ura but whatever...there's lots of stuff you never see in vids for whatever reasons that you end up seeing a good deal of whenever all of us decide to meet up somewhere. Which we should do again one of these days.

 

Add to that like the most obvious rising attack beates....

Sabaki's like Sarah's + and Kage's ++ during Jumonji.

 

...shun's + is like the mother or all rising kick killers.

reversals...

provoke the whiff>vane's + ...

jeff's +...

 

[ QUOTE ]
sanjuro said:I'd prefer to think that playing Jeffry requires you to know when it's knee time.


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You KNOWS it!
I'm still laughing about this one!

 

Well, this is not strictly about frames and I've actually told this to Myke by pm before, but it hasn't been fixed, so here it is.
There are few "errors" in frame data..
Vanessa's DS db+P, Kage's f,b+K and Lei's tiger stance K have also sabaki against LDK. Not just LK, LP & SW.
Another thing: Lei's "independent system blaablablaa"-stance grabs also HE. Not mentioned @ frame data.

Not big thingies, aye, but...

 

the most effective rising attack punishers i have come across.


wolf SS ---- if you can hack the timing (and it's easy because of it's wide hit window and big wind-up) then interrupting both low and high rising attacks is insane reward.

i'd class it higher and easier than jeff's knee.


Goh's hopping kick (u+k - release K) -- this is for anyone who as the same proporties, but i use goh because unlike somebody like wolf, it doesnt have an *U+K* on it's own to register the cancled input (and i think it's faster).

this move is great because it can be used at very tight disadvantage (for instance you miss an early oki attack because ur opponent plays dead) the hop can come out at any time before the opp's low kick connects. when your attack hits, you get a low launch, and with goh, you get a free K, with wolf you get a free reverse hammer, with akira, free dblpm etc.

if you do this early, and the opp gets up to block instead, you are safe (-6?) so it's back to RN. --- and alot of characters has this move /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif