accurate depicition of judo?

I always thought judo was mainly about using your opponent's movements (punches,kicks, etc) against them (i'm no expert though). I'm aware that it's still somewhat strike based, but i was wondering what ppl thought sega could do to make it more accurate (if they even need to). I thought maybe give him more sabakis but that seems like w/ too many he could be abused. Maybe give him sabaki/inashi type moves with new stagger properties unique to him, or something similar to Aoi's tenchi stance? any thoughts?

 

Goh isn't an accurate representation of Judo at all really. I think AM2 realized that they couldn't really make a pure Judoka, as Judo has no strikes. A character w/out strikes wouldn't really be effective in VF, since it would reduce offense would be reduced to HIgh/Low throw, which could be nullified w/ low P. Also, in order to get an oppt. to guard or dodge, (setting up for throw) you need a reason: Strikes.

That's why they gave Goh his "Killing Judo", which usually shows him starting/finishing traditional Judo throws and grapples with strikes. Add nasty personality & bad guy story line as reasons for the "Killing Judo", and you have Goh.

maybe in another post I'll add what I think would make Goh more like a real Judoka, but I have to sleep atm /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Bryan

 

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akiralove said:

A character w/out strikes wouldn't really be effective in VF, since it would reduce offense would be reduced to HIgh/Low throw, which could be nullified w/ low P. Also, in order to get an oppt. to guard or dodge, (setting up for throw) you need a reason: Strikes.


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It's the same reason why there is on pure AIKIDO style in VF.
Such character should only have sabakis, inashis, reversals, and tons of multi-part throws.

 

I have always thought Goh practising old-school Kodokan judo which had striking techniques ( Kodokan judo ). Striking is not allowed in judo competition, so nowadays it's been less practised. I guess that in many schools which are training for sport, they don't practice atemi-waza at all. But I doubt that Goh has Olympics as his main goal... /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

any thoughts to make his style more traditional (do you guys even feel sega should attempt it?). the idea of multi-part throws might be interesting. what if goh had a tenchi style stance that instead of staggering the opponent, it started multi-throw situation. Let's say goh is his tenchi stance and akria throws a punch, goh now has a guaranteed window to input either 6PG, 4PG, or 2PG (the opponent only gets one throw escape), if the throw is succesful it links to another guaranteed 6PG, 4PG, or 2PG (another single throw escape window) but thats it. and if the opponent manages to escape either throw (first or second) they get a decent frame advantage

 

Goh's judo could be kodokan Judo. Pre-Olympics, they did practice basic strikes and kicks. Most of the throws are pretty well portrayed by the game, however, the ground game of Judo is definatly lacking in Goh.

 

Judo doesn't rely on the opponent's punch or kicks, cause those things don't really exist in judo. It's more causing loss of balance and using pivoting to throw the opponent to the ground, which Goh does a very good job of. His throw movements are perfect Judo throws.

And also, more traditional Judo doesn't have alot of ground work, or at least it's not emphasized. That's really more of the modern sports Judo.

 

The problem with Goh, IMO, is that when you use him, or watch him being used, it doesn't really come off as Judo-ish at all. This is partially due to VF's system, where strikes are essential; and partially because of Goh's somewhat weak design.

Because AM2 didn't really flesh out a lot of Goh's concepts very well, and because they seem to be obsessed with nerfing him, Goh players rely on the better moves from his short move list:

+, +, , +, +, + etc.

so what you see looks like some kind of bastardized Karate: lots of kicking and straight punches with a few Throws every now and then. The Throws are really the only time one gets a sense of Judo at all, some of them being classically animated, and others having the Goh touch I talked about before.

Yet, many of Kage's throws (+, +, +, Kage's Side and Back +) also have the classic Judo animations. But Kage and Goh are very different, so what's the difference between the way they play? Aside from some use of Sabakis (which Kage also has a lot of), it's the implementation of the striking game.

And THERE is where I think the problem lies with Goh: for a Throw-based character (which is what a Judo character should be, more than ANY other character in a fighting game, as Judo is ONLY throws/holds in it's modern form; and I think we can call Goh modern, he has face piercings) his throw game is too weak to be the focus of his play.

When I play Wolf, I can easily say that throwing the oppt is the focus of my game. I usually use strikes merely to get the oppt into a position (crouching or standing, low ing etc) where I can throw them. And with Wolf, throwing correctly reaps HUGE rewards. With Goh, I'd say that you get a Good reward, but that it's much harder to play this way. His standing throw game is pretty good, but not as good as Wolfs, and his low throw game is pathetic. IMO, Pai, Vanessa, and Aoi all have better low throw games than Goh.

to me, this is what Goh needs:

1. ability to Hold oppt (foundation of Judo's basic game: hold oppt, they become unbalanced, throw with their weight shift, as Srider described) WITHOUT Sabaki. In FT this is one of his change moves, he shouldn't have to loose his catch throw to do it. Make the hold tougher to break.

2. seriously beefed up Low Throw game: Goh has many ways to force a crouch, but so few ways to capitalize on it. His low throw game should be close to Wolf's, at least as good as Jeffry's.

3. more high-damage throws, he should have at least one 80 point throw. Aside from 270 , I'm not really scared of Goh's throw game. He should have the scariest throw game.

4. more throws that are able to shift position in the ring: he should be able to toss the oppt around the ring. People are scared of Kage's throws for this reason, Goh should have comparable ability.

5. goh should be able to manipulate oppt's throws into his own throws. There are many ways this could be implemented: Goh's Throw Escape goes to his hold with quick + after TE, TE'd throw converts to +8 situation for Goh, Throw Reversals (something I'm hoping they add to all throw heavy characters for VF5, it's a new concept for fighting games afaik) etc. Trying to Grapple/Throw a Judoka is going to be very different from trying to Throw a Kung Fu fighter, just like it's harder to Attack Aoi, VF should reflect this.

6. Ground Game. Goh should have ground fighting positions like Vanessa, and he should be able to turn the tides of Ground Throws/Down Attacks against the oppt. IE Jeffry tries to pick Goh up, Goh enters + Ground Throw Reversal, Jeffry is now in Goh's Guard, Goh proceeds with offensive game from list of choices. If someone tries to punch/kick Goh on the ground, Arm Bar, Leg Trip etc (like Aoi).

7. RIsing Throws. Tina from DOA has this. When on the ground, she can do her tackle if she's face down/head towards. Goh should have something like this, but with High and Low throws. Right now, players have to defend against Mid and Low kicks, Goh should have a kind of rising catch throw with high and low throw options, from in place or rolling. Special Catch throw from Tech Roll?

8. more catch throws. A +P+G or /++ catch throw which started with a defensive dodge would be cool, like Shun's steps but ending with Catch Throw type grab. Goh's Dodge Attack should be a Catch Throw, like Wolf and OS Vanessa.

9. Goh's 3-hit special should start with a Throw, like VF2 SPoD, not a 20-frame linear mid-punch (Goh isn't Akira).

10. Wall Throw(s)

11. Multipart Throws

12. Choking Game. Like Vanessa's DS chokes, but with more options. IE Goh goes into Choke with his +++ low throw; he can take Base Damage, or tap + as soon as Throw begins to go into struggle-able choke (like Vanessa). From here, Goh can decide to wait for oppt to struggle and accept that damage, or input another option(s) for most damaging follow-up (breakable, but it means ending struggle for defender): something like pull oppt into Guard, choke oppt momentarily, finish with Triangle Hold. This kind of thing could serve as Goh's 3-hit special.

To me, Goh should be Throw MANIA. For people who like to use Throws, Goh should be the clear choice. Right now, Wolf is a better choice. If I were designing Goh, I'd like to see how players changed their style if all these things were implemented. If adding these things didn't move Goh heavily in the direction of a Throw Based game, I'd say maybe tuning of the Sabakis and adding Reversals was in order.

I just don't think AM2 has spent the time with Goh they really need to. But, I think these things would really make him much more like a real Judoka. I know NY Hiro was a pretty serious Judoka, maybe he could add some thoughts. I only played Judo for a little over a year before I had to quit.

Bryan

 

wow akiralove.....copy and paste your last post and email it to sega. I think you hit on some excellent suggestions, I agree that goh should have some throws/throw properties that are unique to him alone.

 

Transition from guillotine into triangle? How is that even fucking possible?

Really though, Goh just needs a super beefed up throw game, and I think he'd be pretty well up there. (I like your idea of him being able to work the guard - make it sort of like vanessa's mount, definitely make tsukami better, and make his throws have better ring out potential, and we have a monster on our hands! - well maybe not quite).

And since you mentioned it, what's the deal with kage not armbarring his opponent after applying the flying armbar?

 

Actually, you got it exactly the opposite. It was the olympics that imposed time limits on the Judo ground game as well as allowing people to win via pin.

 

Bravo Bryan, I love all of your suggestions. I've been trying to play Goh ever since Evo came out, and been more frustrated than anything else. FT hasn't helped much really.

Something I've always complained about was Tsukami - it should be harder to get out of the options, and easier for Goh to enter Tsukami.

Even within the new FT additions there are things that seemed halfway implemented, like the PKG roll - why not have a tackle from that?

Anyway, nice to see you /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Manoel

 

Nice post Akiralove. I think it would be nice and more accurate if Goh's nitaku was between throw and hitthrows. Yes I know he has the 66p but that's not what I'm talking about - I'm talking about hitthrows where he uses the opponents force against them into a throw instead of using force into the opponent. So you get an offensive throw and if the opponent is on the offence towards you Goh uses that force into another throw.

Rather that then 6k's and shldrm's ^___^

/KiwE

 

Actually..it would be better if he could have moves where he moves in deflecting an attack as well as offsetting the persons balance. Look at how Yoshida in PRIDE attacks people who throw long punches.