Akira c-sglplm to m-dblplm on PS2 etc.

Discussion in 'Akira' started by Zato, Apr 3, 2002.

  1. Zato

    Zato Member

    OK unlike my last post, I searched before asking...

    A popular combo with Akira seems to be b, d+P+G --> c-sglplm --> m-dblplm. I've heard even Chibita got "lazy" one time and got c-sglplm --> SPoD because he expected the "automatic" c-sglplm --> m-dblplm. Based on this story and movies I have seen (Daioh Ero 3-5 #2 esp.), c-sglplm --> m-dblplm must be a combo on some arcade version of VF4.

    However, I'm not convinced it is a combo on PS2. Granted I'm not the world's greatest at doing that particular set of motions (I know you have to buffer CD either forward or backward to do it) but I've done it pretty fast once or twice and have never had it combo on the counter. But what really does it for me is that moves that I can easily do much faster and easier and that seem to come out just as fast as the m-dblplm (such as f, f+K or f, f, f+P or b, f, f+P+K) never combo either.

    Am I just weak or was that a verB combo (PS2 is verC right)?
    Also, I have seen a movie (Yamiyodare vs Kyasao from TB Zone) where Yamiyodare does (with Jacky) P+K, P, K --> P, P, u+P. WTF!? I almost KNOW that isn't verC (if PS2 is C)! What is going on here?

    Last question: c-sglplm --> m-dblplm seems to do at most about 65 damage (30~32 + 30~32; these are just estimates). Isn't d/f, d/f+P --> LP --> m-dblplm just as, if not more, damaging (even with damage scaling)? Is m-dblplm really THAT fast?
     
  2. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    However, I'm not convinced it is a combo on PS2. Granted I'm not the world's greatest at doing that particular set of motions (I know you have to buffer CD either forward or backward to do it) but I've done it pretty fast once or twice and have never had it combo on the counter. But what really does it for me is that moves that I can easily do much faster and easier and that seem to come out just as fast as the m-dblplm (such as f, f+K or f, f, f+P or b, f, f+P+K) never combo either.

    ST ~ SgPm ~ DbPm is indeed a true combo in ver.B and ver.C, arcade or PS2. But, your timing must be perfect, particularly for the modified double palm. If you're off by 1 frame, the opponent can block the double palm. The best way to try this out is to go to free training mode, set the computer to autoblock, then try stumble throw -- single palm -- double palm. If your double palm is blocked, you're doing it too slowly. ff+K and bff+P+K will not hit, both of those moves execute slower than the doublepalm (check framestats for execution data).

    (Yes, it does seem from the Daioh and ACT clips like those Akira players can do ST ~ SgPm ~ DbPm all day long, but guys like Mukky, Narugoh and Ohsu practice day in and day out.)


    Am I just weak or was that a verB combo (PS2 is verC right)?
    Also, I have seen a movie (Yamiyodare vs Kyasao from TB Zone) where Yamiyodare does (with Jacky) P+K, P, K --> P, P, u+P. WTF!? I almost KNOW that isn't verC (if PS2 is C)! What is going on here?


    This is a very old clip, based on ver.A. This version was only out in Japan from 8/1/01 to 8/20/01. ver.B and onwards, this no longer works.


    Last question: c-sglplm --> m-dblplm seems to do at most about 65 damage (30~32 + 30~32; these are just estimates). Isn't d/f, d/f+P --> LP --> m-dblplm just as, if not more, damaging (even with damage scaling)? Is m-dblplm really THAT fast?

    I'm assuming you're referring to stumble throw followups? Yoho (df,df+P) is not guaranteed after ST. If you're not referring to stumble throw followups, then I'm a little confused because SgPm doesn't float, while Yoho does.

    DbPm has a 12f execution, and is Akira's fastest mid move, btw.
     
  3. danny13

    danny13 Well-Known Member

    Just to clear up one point, Chibita was not lazy in that match against that akira player. He was doing Lion's sabaki meteor punch after that akira dash in after st->single palm. I guess that he was predicting that akira player to throw him or high guard break him. Chibita lazy? Never.
     
  4. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Ah, and meteor punch won't stop a mid-level punch (the beginning of SPoD)
    Nifty idea though... cudos to Chibi again if that's what he was up to in that clip.
     
  5. Zato

    Zato Member

    Thanks fellas for all the replies. And BTW the "Chibita was lazy" story was a paraphrase of something I heard somewhere else. Guess I heard wrong. Are there any high quality (usual ACT quality; Daioh and TB Zone movies are a little hard to tell exactly what is going on sometimes) movies of Chibita and/or Shinz out there? I'm really interested in high level Lion and Akira play.
     
  6. danny13

    danny13 Well-Known Member

    Check out Feixaq's website. For Chibita's lion gameplay, download all the daioh_1-19nojis. Take note three or four of the clips shows Chibita using vanessa. Also be prepared to wait for your turn to download clips as the website is very very popular.
     
  7. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    the alternative of course is <a target="_blank" href=ftp://vf.dyndns.org>ftp://vf.dyndns.org</a>... but prepare to wait awhile for that one too. When it's on, it's slow, and when it's off, it tends to stay off for a few hours.

    Added the insane vf2 combos (and the misc VF4 cutesy stuff) into a "psycho vf2" under "recent vf movies". Also check the latest daioh (ero 15) for serious akira rampaging. I thought it was great that uraose (who was in a few amact clips) trashed a lot of good players in ero15, but in ero14 got whupped like 3-0 by a wolf.
     
  8. FokFu

    FokFu Active Member

    I find it very difficult to do STB-Single Palm-Double Palm too.
    Is there some other ways that I could try (before I master the above) for now? I mean...the STB doesn't cause too much damage by itself.

    Sometimes I gamble quite a bit, I simply dash in and do a SPOD or do a pull-in throw combo after the STB - make my opponent guess....
    But again, these moves are not guaranteed....I want something that's more solid.

    PS. I find it particularly hard to do STB-Single palm - double plam on the Player-2 side.

    Vince
     
  9. Euclid

    Euclid Active Member

    Are you sure that SPoD after stumble throw is not guaranteed? I have been playing around with this recently and I know that one cannot block it, evade, and Jacky and Vanessa cannot grab your hand. What I have not tested are counter punches(low mid or high) or reversals.

    I am feeling pretty good because I was just able to do start doing Super dashing elbow -->m-dblplm as a combo. For the life of me I cannot do sglplm-->m-dblplm. That is hard as hell.
     
  10. BMF

    BMF Well-Known Member

    If your opponent struggles after stumble throw then they can block the stun palm. I'm guessing the person you played against didn't struggle hard enough. I used to do SJK~p~DJK after ST when I started playing VF but I stopped because it can be blocked. I'm pretty sure that right now only c-Sgom,m-Dbpm is the only guaranteed follow up after the ST.
     
  11. Euclid

    Euclid Active Member

    Ahhh, thanks, I didn't think about struggling.
    I had just set up situations in free training to test this. the computer could not block or evade it. and no, my brother(the only person I have to play against) probably would not have even thought of struggling.

    guess I have to go practice sglplm dblplm now....
     
  12. Zato

    Zato Member

    I thought that this threat died a long time ago. I'm impressed that it's still around...

    Anyway, I've gotten the stun throw, single palm, double palm combo several times in practice but never in competition. I've never really tried it either because 1) the entire combo is too hard and 2) the stun throw is very impractical (buffering it often leads to an accidental sidestep).

    Let me say this to the non-elite players who dream of mastering this combo - give up! Once you finally get it a handful of times you will see what I mean. The timing is WAY too hard to do it consistently! You probably get less than 1/10 of a second to enter the entire m-dblplm command (2 frames advantage due to the single palm hit + about 4 frames buffer at the end of the single palm = 6 frames which, at 60 fps, is 6/60 or 1/10 of a second). You'd think there was some kind of trick to it, but there isn't. The most I can say is try to buffer the single palm motion as soon as possible to loosen your mind and use a joystick. I use a pad and am quite sure that w/ a stick it would be simpler but by no means any more practical.

    I'd suggest sticking to Yohou (df, df+P) combos. Those are not guaranteed, but against beginners and some intermediates they might as well be. Or go with stun throw --> single palm (guaranteed 35 damage) into a crouch dashing switch-up such as {df+P+G (df+P FLUP) vs. Yohou combo}. That's around a 60/60 damage guessing game on top of the 35 from the throw w/palm. However, beware of evading throw escapes (note the df+P+G throw escape also stops b, df+P+G). Your opponent can thereby turn the stun throw into a basic Lau throw that puts you at a disadvantage...OUCH!

    I would personally stay away from the stun throw and stick to df+P+G for as long as I could. Along with the df+P FLUP it is 62 damage. The whole stun throw combo is only 65 (10 for ST + 25 for s-plm + 30 for m-dblplm = 65). Three more damage for all that trouble? It's like trying to master DLC juggles when shrm and/or m-dblplm juggles do more damage...pointless if you ask me. After df+P+G starts getting broken, move to b/db, f+P+G (which is only around 40 damage each if QR/TR) and eventually f, b+P+G against really slow throw counterable moves. The situation gets increasingly desperate and you have to be increasingly creative and/or accurate with your throws and throw FLUPs as your opponents increase in skill and variability. I'd hate to think of how desperate it gets in Japan sometimes...maybe that is the whole point of that thread discussing Japanese not using throws against throw counterable moves!

    Something else to note about Akira is that df+K is guaranteed after b, df+P+G (total 49 damage). So is a SDE. However, if they use the directional pad instead of guard to turn around, they can avoid many of the canned FLUPs to the SDE combo (such as AS3 or perhaps s-plm or shrm for LW/SLW). However, I bet you can still get m-dblplm afterwards...guess I have to go practice now.

    Just my two cents...which is free BTW.

    PS: Wolf's "good" giant swing is 6 commands (b, db, d, df, f+P) in 8 frames. The m-dblplm is 5 commands ({db, db or df, df}, b, f+P) in about 6 frames. We all know how hard the "good" giant swing is to pull off...and that is one fluid motion, not individual taps with semi-conflicting directionals...
     
  13. FokFu

    FokFu Active Member

    I do agree with you that the Stumbing throw ~ sglplm ~ dblplm is a very hard combo to pull off and yes, it's really not that practical in competition.

    There's another Akira combo that I've been practing lately and its' used in many Diaoh Tournament. Namely, b,f+P~P~m-dblplm.

    I must admit that its a very hard combo to do, especially when you have to buffer in the m-dblpm right after the small punch. But guess what? I still find this combo easier than the stumbling throw combo! FOr some reason, the stumble throw combo requires perfection in timing.....
     
  14. Euclid

    Euclid Active Member

    following the reverse body slam throw(b, df+G+P) I can follow up fairly consistently with SDE m-dblplm. I am assuming that this is more damage than the df+P+G df+P FLUP (62 damage) you recommend. Is that true?

    in normal play if one connects with the single palm is the m-dblplm guaranteed? This is the real reason I want to do that combo. The single palm is a major part of my game and I would love to add more damage to it if I could. I have never tried to try this in a non training environment. I can't even do it in training yet.

    On a semi unrelated note, I have never been able to get the hang to using a joystick. I need a pad and I feel pretty good with it. I can come out with a DLC in no time on the ps2 pad. That knee though....

    Akira has become my favorite character now. Everything he does is very fun to pull off. unfortunately my Aoi game is getting worse.

    thanks for the advice!
    Euclid
     
  15. Zato

    Zato Member

    Actually I was wrong, the stun throw~single palm~double palm combo does 60 damage. This is because on a whole the single palm does varying degrees of damage (depending on distance) but it only does 20 after the stun throw. 10 + 20 + 30 = 60.

    I have found that on SLWs, LWs, and most MWs (excluding Akira and Lau), stun throw~SDE~double palm is very consistent and does around 54. Since SDE is even faster than the guaranteed single palm (14 frames vs. 15 near/16 far) it is also guaranteed. Plus, it is only six less damage (about 1/2 of a standing punch). And best of all, it is much easier to do.

    However, you will find the weight limitations imposed by that combo carry over to the b, df+P+G throw combo mentioned in the earlier posts. By turning around with the directional pad instead of block, the opponent floats face forward. This only allows the entire SDE~double palm to hit the non-HW, non-Lau, and non-Akira opponents (in Lau’s and Akira's cases we are assuming a moderately, but not extremely fast, execution of the double palm; at the highest possible speed it is even consistent on them).
    Of course, this is opposed to opponents who use guard to turn around. In that case they will float back turned and the double palm can even hit HWs before they can QR/TR (the computer performs the SDE~double palm all the time after f, b+P+G~u/d~P+K; even on Jeffrey).

    You will also find that (on average) b, f+P~P~double palm does 55 damage. I would suggest b, f+P~d+P~double palm which does 53. It is less flashy, but much, MUCH easier. Note, however, that you must wait a considerable amount of time for their legs to flop back towards the ground before the d+P will hit. If it misses, you are likely pressing d+P too early.

    One more thing…I had been using d, db, b, d, db, b, f+P to do double palms in the past (QCBx2, f+P). I have found it much easier to move to a modified "dragon punch" version in which I start with back instead e.g. b, db, d, db, b, f+P. This has given me the ability to do all of the combos previously mentioned fairly consistently. It has also brought consistency of the infamous stun throw~single palm~double palm combo within my reach.
     
  16. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    The reason people work so much to get ST->sgpm->dbpm down is because it's 60 guaranteed damage. You almost never see people escape the ST, whereas df+P+G gets escaped all the time, so it actually may be a better option on the whole than df+P+G. Since Akira has no other useful guaranteed throws (b,df+P+G followups are not a combo, neither is f,b+P+G,u+P+K), it's good to practice something you can reliably do after ST, even if it is SDE -> dbpm.
     
  17. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    f, b+P+G against really slow throw counterable moves. The situation gets increasingly desperate and you have to be increasingly creative and/or accurate with your throws and throw FLUPs as your opponents increase in skill and variability. I'd hate to think of how desperate it gets in Japan sometimes...maybe that is the whole point of that thread discussing Japanese not using throws against throw counterable moves!

    <hr></blockquote>
    If u want to do f,b+p+g(catch throw) as a counter..... Why don't u do m-shrm? It's actually faster in exec than f,b+p+g(19 frames). And m-shrm gives guaranteed damage compared to f,b+p+g.

    There is a reason why pple can do ST -> sgpm ->dbpm... The word is practice.
     
  18. Zato

    Zato Member

    What I meant by "f, b+P+G against really slow throw counterable moves" was that against moves that are very slow to recover (probably punch counterable or better) f, b+P+G is probably a nice switch-up from the other throws. The reasoning was that because it is a catch throw, it will probably grab the opponent out of any wiffed throw animations that they might perform in the wake of their throw break (w/ optional ~hold G as a backup to guard against attacks). However, that case would only apply if you expected them to attempt a throw break in the first place. If you think that they expect a throw to start with and will perform a move to snuff it, then yes, shrm is probably one of your better options.
    I doubt that you will ever see a sequence in which f, b+P+G consistently grabs someone out of an offensive move. If you ever see it, it is rather rare. And if you see it consistently, my guess is that you will probably see a scrub to the very left or right of it.

    BTW, I haven't tested to see whether or not f, b+P+G can actually grab a normal throw. It was just a thought. Like I said, it would be desperate indeed. But in my case, everyone around where I play is still in the URA-beginner stage where we break maybe 1/100 throws (except low throws in combos, which are a lot easier) and d+P/d+K reigns supreme. Also you see a couple of those "deer in the headlights" deals going on every once and a while. In other words, I rarely have to deviate from df+P+G~df+P and travel into the realm of the "desperate". But we are getting better thanks to this site. Maybe I'll get "desperate" one day soon! In the meantime, practice, practice, practice...
     
  19. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Just a few comments:

    The f,b+P+G is a catch throw, and like all catch throws, can be interrupted by a normal throw. So your idea of using a this throw to foil a throw escape attempt will fail, because the "throw escape" will actually throw you.

    Seeing the f,b+P+G grab someone out of an attack isn't rare, and is a good property for catch throws in general. I wouldn't be so bold as to label someone a scrub for having their attack interrupted with a catch throw either. If the Akira player is creative enough, he'll find few situations where his catch throw will interrupt his opponent's attack. I'd rather credit the Akira player, than discredit his opponent. Then again, if Akira is spamming or predictable with f,b+P+G and the opponent keeps eating it, then they're both bordering on scrubbery IMO.
     
  20. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

    Like myke said u will get thrown before ur f,b+p+g finishes it's execution. U can try by asking someone to do a shrm and u guard it. Immediately follow up with f,b+p+g. Ur friend should be spamming p+g after shrm. It's not going to work.. Unless ur opponent is super good in throw breaks after guard that's when u might use it. But it's not guaranteed so might as well not.
     

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