Akira's Version C Command List Errata

Here's the start of another set of command list comments:

1. The b,f+P Standing Palm appears to cause a Flop.
2. The reversal levels for the df+K Side Kick and the df+K+G Dragon Lance should be updated to SK.
3. The d+P+G Break Guard does no damage to a crouching defender. Should the hit level be changed from M to M*?
4. Myke: Akira and other characters have attacks (e.g., Akira's Evading Body Check and Power Fist) that cause the opponent to automatically go face down and prevent a QR/TR. These are effectively the same as a Slam, but the animations with their consequent face down results are different looking than a typical Slam's. Do you want these noted?
5. The df+P+K+G Crumbling Hand appears to need a “Force Crouch†note.
6. The following attacks leave the opponent back turned to Akira: Stun Palm Reverse Body Check; df+P+G Surprise Exchange; Pull-in Throw, Reverse Body Check; b,df+P+G Reverse Body Check.
7. Should the b,d+P+G Stumbling Trip have a note describing its animation? It has a “Guard Stagger†note, but I don’t see how a throw can guard stagger. I understand that a throw can stagger, but I thought the phrase "Guard Stagger" specifically referred to special high/midlevel attacks that can stagger a standing guarding opponent, when normally such an attack would simply be blocked in those situations. This is not the case for throws, since guarding has no effect on them. Hence, why the term "Guard Stagger" for the effects of this throw? Maybe I don't understand the term after all. Though it ought to, the legend fails to define the terms "Guard Stagger" or "Guard Break." The term "Guard Stagger" is used as a note for the d+P+G Guard Break, but it neither damages nor staggers crouching defenders, which seems inconsistent with what I thought "Guard Stagger" attacks do. I have no problem in understanding the use of the term for an attack that staggers standing defenders but knocks down/floats crouching defenders instead of staggering them. But is it appropriate for an attack like the Break Guard? It's also confusing to see the term "Guard Break" being used to describe the effects of the Pull-in Throw, but not for the eponymous Break Guard attack.
8. The command notation for the Stun Palm Reverse Body Check is missing the parenthetical “(hit)†between the two parts of the combo.
9. The reversal level of the df+K+Gf+P Dragon Lance, Dashing Elbow should be changed from MP to EL.
10. I believe three of Akira’s listed reversals should be broken down further into separate entries: His b+P+K High Punch Reversal has two distinct versions, one apparently for left limbs which comes out as a Youhou and leaves the opponent face down, and one for right limbs (which comes out the same as the elbow follow-up to the Crumbling Hand) that causes the opponent to fly back landing face up. His db+P+K Middle Punch Reversal has two limb specific versions identical looking to the two corresponding High Punch Reversals. His db+P+K Side Kick Reversal has two limb specific versions as well; the one vs right legs leaves the opponent face down and the one vs left legs leaves the opponent face up. The game calls them "Haiho Richu" and "Jouho Shoukou," but I don't know which name applies to which version.
11. The base damages for all of Akira’s b+P+K and db+P+K reversals are listed as 30. I believe they should be 20. Actual damage inflicted is 20 + base damage of the reversed attack.
12. Though not mentioned, the b+P+K+G Heaven Thrust also is a reversal vs HE attacks. Further, the effects on the opponent and possible follow-ups to its reversals of HP, HK, and LP attacks are so different, that I feel these should all be listed separately as three different reversals (similar to the way Akira’s b+P+K/db+P+K reversals are separated by attack type). Unless the frame data is different, the HE version looks to me the same as the HP version.
13. The (b+P+K+G)f+P Heaven Thrust, Single Palm appears to cause a Stomach Crumble.

There will be more to add, after some further testing.

Edited to rewrite comment 7 so that it makes more sense than the original.

 

Myke: Just a note in case you've already read this thread and don't make a habit of rereading posts: I edited my above post by rewriting comment 7, clarifying what I was originally questioning.

 

1. I believe the Overhead Double Palm needs a note saying it Slams on a float.
2. The b,df+P Overhead Smash is a midlevel attack that recovers low.
3. The fully charged version of the b,f+P+K Double-Fisted Strike needs a Sober (DP -2) note, and the b,f+P+K+G Power Fist needs a Sober (DP -1) note.
4. I think there should be some kind of note confirming that the Stun Palm, Reverse Body Check is a hit throw, and thus can't be used in air combos.
5. I think the Elbow Rush side throw needs a note indicating that a QR/TR limits the throw's damage to 30.
6. The Sober (DP -1) note for the Axe Blade, Shot Knee, Overhead Smash should be removed.
7. The Spring Wall Jump Kick is a Guard Stagger attack.
8. Damage ranges:
Single Palm: 25~35
Double Palm: 30~45
Body Check: 20~65
For all three, the damage decreases with distance.
9. The command notation for the Knee could be made a little clearer. Perhaps: K+G (release G within 1 frame).

 

1. The Axe Blade, Shot Knee, Overhead Smash "Slams on a float."
2. I am still trying to figure out what the Guard Break note for the f,b+P+G Pull-in throw means; and shouldn't there be some kind of note addressing its animation effects? It has a weird looking one for both Akira and his opponent.
3. The Pull-in Throw, Shoulder Ram staggers the opponent.
4. Both Pull-in Throw, Reverse Body Check attacks cause some kind of strange stagger. It appears to happen to the opponent's back. During the Free Training mode, no struggling joystick icon appears, but when Akira does the RBC part a red flash briefly occurs, and the little box in the right upper part of the screen flashes a stagger note. I guess this is what is meant by Akira having flashy moves... /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

1. updated to "High Guard Stagger" for d+P+G and f+P+G.

I think it is, especially with the word "High" prefixing it since it only staggers if they're guarding (high).

Staggers (and Stumbles for that matter) can occur on Guard, Hit and MC.

Myke: Does all this mean you are now willing to include notes on moves that stagger only crouchers, etc.? I don't understand why the list currently only notes staggers if they affect standing opponents, and I am prepared to provide input on the crouch, etc. staggers (which I really believe should be included -- especially since the term "stagger" without any "high" qualifier is included in the legend).

2. In regard to the Legend not explaining what a Guard Stagger is. Well, it does. It's just a Stagger which occurs where you would have otherwise guarded the attack..

Yeah, except that (if I recall correctly) Guard Staggers vs high guarding opponents never (at least not with the moves I've checked so far) directly cause damage, which sort of makes them special. BTW, perhaps this should be the difference between "guard stagger" and the term "guard break." If there are any high/midlevel attacks that hit standing defenders for damage, or low attacks that do the same to crouching defenders, then I believe the term "guard break" might be appropriate.

3. Akira has a P+K punch that has been overlooked not only on the move list, but in ReCharredSigh's Akira FAQ as well. It leaves him stationary (and thus looks like his B+P), but won't combo into Px sequences. It's the equivalent of a stationary P(G), but a few frames faster (whatever not having to G-cancel saves).

 

Added Akira's Rising Attacks to the version C command list. The reversal levels need to be verified.

I'll be adding other characters rising attacks as I find the time.
Excellent!

1. You've got the reversal levels for the midlevel attacks reversed. The Katsumenkousentai (face down feet towards) and the Katsumenkousentai (face down feet towards, sideroll) are both MK, not SK. All the rest of Akira's midlevel rising attacks are SK, not MK.

As for the low rising attacks:
2. The Chisoukyaku (face down feet towards) and the Chisoukyaku (face down feet towards, sideroll) do a foot crumble.
3. The reversal level for the Kosoutai (face down head towards) is SW, not LK. It also causes a foot crumble. The Katsumensoutai (face down head towards, sideroll) looks identical to the Kosoutai. Are you sure the name is correct? In any case, it too has reversal level SW and causes a foot crumble.
4. The Chisoukyaku (face up head towards) does a foot crumble.
5. The Kousentai (face up head towards, sideroll) is reversal level SW, not LK.

All the other low rising attacks are correctly shown with LK reversal levels.

 

All of the "delay" rising attacks can be done preceded by a sideroll. Is it worth noting this? Or is this just common knowledge?

 

I had said:
The reversal level for the Kosoutai (face down head towards) is SW, not LK. It also causes a foot crumble. The Katsumensoutai (face down head towards, sideroll) looks identical to the Kosoutai. Are you sure the name is correct? In any case, it too has reversal level SW and causes a foot crumble.
Uh, oh. I think I made a mistake. I always go back and recheck stuff I post here, so I do catch my mistakes, but I hate when I post them. This is another case of late night/early morning bad reading of hastily put-together massive notes (I had coincidentally been testing reversal levels for all characters' rising attacks when you updated Akira's list with his). Getting to the point: I am indeed still convinced these two moves are variants of the same move and should have the same name; but I am pretty sure I was incorrect in reporting them as SW reversible. I believe they can't be reversed at all (they are two-legged kicks and do cause the foot crumble I reported). I was not able to reverse them after an hour of trying today. I think I confused my notes about them with my notes about the Chisoukyaku attacks that also cause a foot crumble. Sorry.

 

Moving on:
1. The f+P Elbow and the df+K Side Kick cause a Crouch Stagger.
2. The f,f+P Dashing Elbow causes a Crouch Stagger on a non-MC hit.
3. The f,f,f+P Super Dashing Elbow causes a Crouch Guard Stagger.
4. I believe the charged version of the b,f+P+K Double-Fisted Strike does a Side Knockdown. Also, its Guard Stagger note should be updated to a High Guard Stagger.
5. The -12 and -12 in the Hit and MC columns of the b,f+P+K+G should be deleted (it's a knockdown move).
6. The SPoD should have a "(hit)" in its command notation.
7. The "Slams on Float" note for the d+K+Gf+Kb,f+P should be deleted as a redundancy since it already has a Force Crouch note.
8. The (side) P+G Elbow Rush should be divided into two separate entries, for (right side) and (left side). The (right side) version always leaves the the two opposing fighters in closed stance; the (left side) version always leaves them in open stance.
9. A minor point: Myke, in the Kage errata thread, you explained to me that the difference between an Inashi and a Sabaki is that a Sabaki is an attack in its own right that also happens to parry blows. By this criterion, shouldn't Akira's b+P+K+G Heaven Thrust moves be listed as Inashis, not Sabakis?
10. The (asc or mid) P Hopping Smash needs a Slams on Air Hit note.
11. The back turned d+P Smash is a Force Crouch move.
12. The back turned d+K Shin Kick is a low attack that recovers high.
13. I just thought I'd mention that the (desc) P Hopping Punch not only knocks down on an MC, but on an mc as well, even though it doesn't on a normal hit. I mention this because I recall seeing posts that say mc hits do nothing more than add +25% damage...

 

Uh, oh. I think I made a mistake. I always go back and recheck stuff I post here, so I do catch my mistakes, but I hate when I post them. This is another case of late night/early morning bad reading of hastily put-together massive notes (I had coincidentally been testing reversal levels for all characters' rising attacks when you updated Akira's list with his). Getting to the point: I am indeed still convinced these two moves are variants of the same move and should have the same name; but I am pretty sure I was incorrect in reporting them as SW reversible. I believe they can't be reversed at all (they are two-legged kicks and do cause the foot crumble I reported). I was not able to reverse them after an hour of trying today. I think I confused my notes about them with my notes about the Chisoukyaku attacks that also cause a foot crumble. Sorry.
Wait! Hold on! I may have been right initially after all. I am now able to reverse the The Katsumensoutai (face down head towards, sideroll) as an SW attack! I am still working on the other one, which, as I said, looks just like it....

 

Myke: Okay, I think I finally worked this rising attacks confusion out today. The answer was staring me right in the face. All the reversal information I originally gave to you on Akira's rising attacks is correct, except for one entry: The Kosoutai (face down head towards) D+KKK is apparently not reversible. To me, the Kosoutai (face down head towards) D+KKK may appear identical to the Katsumensoutai (face down head towards, sideroll) D+KKK, but they are in fact different with regards to reversibilty. The Katsumensoutai (face down head towards, sideroll) D+KKK is SW reversible as I originally said. Another problem resolved.

 

I guess that also accounts for the different names?
That's what was staring me right in the face. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif But I still don't understand why the SW reversible Katsumensoutai has the same name as several of the LK kicks...

 

New comments:
1. As I've already reported in the Wolf thread, Akira has a special + Low Kick Reversal (with 30 base damage) that is used to reverse Wolf's + Rolling Sobat.
2. The + High Punch Reversal, the + Mid Punch Reversal, and the + Side Kick Reversal all have left/right limb variants and should, IMHO, be divided accordingly into separate entries.

 

3. The ++ Power Fist should have a "b" in its Esc column box.