Alright, own up!

the DC, as a whole is the worst thing to ever happen to the NA vf scene. worst thing ever in seven years

I don't agree with you on this one. The worst thing happened here is SOA's STUUUPID decision to put the VF3 in THAT huge cabinet, which turned out to be way to expensive.

I can probably guess that you miss all those crowds who used to play VF2. Well...they all seemed to have dissappeared upon VF3's release. Speaking of VF3TB on DC, Rich, you don't doubt that so many more are now exposed to the world of VF, right? Seeing this discussion, it may not be helping to restructure true VF scene with real arcade version. But IF there is indeed a sequel to VF3, provided that SOA won't make same STUPID mistake, many will at least give a try to VF4 initially.

those 20-30 people hating me because i speak out on those "little nuances"

They don't hate you, they won't simply understand you because they have not seen the game. You preaching will do no good, not because of the points you make though.

...it's faster. less time to react. less time to think. that won't change.

That is true. I agree with neither side though. Yes, I admit that DC version is faster. But to me, it is not THAT much of a difference. Oh well...I'm only speaking about myself, so this would not add to the argument.

 

I'd go where the competition goes, thats the heart of playing the game. To get better and have fun. Why do you get better beyond an enthusiasts level? usually cause of competition. Playing people helps alot. If everyone played vf3tb arcade then I would play it, I think we all would. But as it is we have DC VF3TB. So if I had both, I would play the one everyone plays to get better. Its more fun that way.

That Japanese music thing with the narration is meant as a fun thing. just hit stop if you dislike it. If its crashing your browser, I'll try fixing it from doing that.

CrewNYC

<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by adamYUKI on 10/8/00 11:16 PM.</FONT></P>

 

I'd go where the competition goes, thats the heart of playing the game. To get better. Why do you get better beyond an enthusiasts level? usually cause of competition. Playing people hels alot. If everyone played vf3tb arcade then I would play it, I think we all would. But as it is we have DC VF3TB. So if I had both, I would play the one everyone plays to get better. Its more fun that way.

That Japanese music thing with the narration is meant as a fun thing. just hit stop if you dislike it. If its crashing your browser, I'll try fixing it from doing that.

CrewNYC

<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>

 

One arcade board for 20-30 people?
Maybe if it was complimented with DC's.

-Emil

 

the DC -never- brought me any more competition. the amount of time i've played competition on the DC will -never- come close to the time i've had competing in the arcades.
aside from the ny crew (and emil)...how many older generation players got more frequent, decent, full action with the advent of the dc?
not bloody many, i don't think.
now we're fractured, factionalized worse than ever. with luck all get together once in a very great while.

as for the new competition...can you count on both your hands the new players who are entirely new to the vf scene from VF3tb DC? (lurkers, however many there be, do not count)

yeah shota, there's a lot of things i miss about vf these days. you seem to long for the competition in japan, yourself. and i don't blame you.
[to clarify, shota...vf3 in boston was great to be in its heyday. almost each friday and saturday at jillians for nearly two years there was a massive (and i mean massive...15-25 people or more. not including the drunk clubgoers who would wander over and babble at us)]

and yeah, i'm a twisted little bitter pill when it comes to a lot of things about vf these days. we both seem to hold each of our vf experiences pretty dear to us, and i'm not stupid - i understand and fully respect your feelings for the japanese scene. but, you i think should also respect my own experiences..the people i've seen, the places i've been. if you had been in my place for the past five or so years, and, even with your exposure and developement in the japanese scene...i'm sure you wouldn't hold the NA scene in such lackluster regard. it was -good-.
emphasis on was.

--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"

 

>good players players just don't care about them.

i must *really* suck, then.
and you speak for all of these good player, i suppose? who are they?

>Can you give an approximate percentage of the speed difference?

20 percent. give or take a few. just my guess. either way it's significant.


--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"

 

Chanchai: "However, I will say that I believe, slower matches lead to more intelligent matches which can actually show further, the dynamic of the game. "

Adam: "Again, the beginner and intermediate player is suited for arcade's speed, but the advanced player can CARRY OVER INTELLIGENT PLAY TO THE QUICKER VERSION - SO PLEASE GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF HOW THE "DYNAMIC OF THE GAME" CAN'T be apparent in the DC version?"

Chanchai's Response:
To correct my own statement, I should have said, "tends to lead to." As always this is just an opinion, one side of the hand perspective, my observation. I meant to imply that the seasoned (advanced, expert) player, though he can carry his experience and overall intelligence in handling situations over to the faster game, will still have more time to even advance his thoughts or even understanding of his opponent's play in a slower version. Given that extra bit of time, it's enough to add quite a bit to both players' thought process and hence, give them a chance to "more intelligently" express their tactics and strategic thinking in the game. Do you know what I mean? I'm not saying it doesn't exist in faster matches, I'm just saying that with that extra time, you still have an opportunity (maybe not that much, but sometimes every bit counts) to override a pre-existing idea with one that is perhaps better (or maybe worse) decision. With an experienced player such as yourself, I would assume it would be for better. However, this added time goes for both players, and hence, both of them are also equally giving the opportunity, that added bit of time, to rethink or correct a tactic. Does this make sense to you? I'm not saying it does not exist in DC play, it certainly does, but the added time can make a different. Not to mention the factor that players that are quick on their mind/memories/understanding might be caught up with players that are even just a tad slower... To me, this makes the match overall TEND TO BE more intelligent. Not necessarily is a rule, but the probability is higher that both the attacker and defender might actually put that extra time to use with extra time. Again, does this make sense? BTW, as you said, it is the advanced players that can carry over into the faster speed. Would not the beginners or intermediate players, who are more suited to the slower speed, play more intelligently in the slower environment? Does this not up the chances of more intelligent play "overall?" Not to mention that I think there are many advanced players that perhaps don't think as fast as others (think implies that it is not just a simple case of routine playing to me) and so they are reduced in the speed burst (I guess spurt is a better term). With MORE players playing MORE INTELLIGENTLY than they normally would, I think that might up the chance of the overall game advancing in terms of strategy and tactics and what not. Besides, Japanese players are usually playing the arcade version anyways, aren't they? Maybe I shouldn't have thrown that in, but they are given that little bit of extra time, and there certainly are more players as I understand it, and not everyone's an expert whose thought processes are extremely fast. However, tossing in the Japanese here isn't really a tasteful way of arguing here, it's been done so many times.

Chanchai: "Faster matches leave to sharper play, requiring quick thinking, dexterity, and good reaction--to me, this does not mean more intelligent games as some have tried to say"

What was ommitted: "(but this doesn't say that faster matches are stupid either. However, the chances of making more intelligent decisions in a situation is reduced greatly by the increased pressure in time)."

Adam: "Man o man...so, what is intelligent play for you? Why is it so hard for you to understand that great thinking can easily be a part of the DC experience? I guess i have problems with this cause once a week, every week (when playing with nelson, andy, and hiro) my brain is fried cause there is such a high level of trying to outwit each other and adjust. This is "intelligent play"...is your definition of "intelligent play" something else?"

Chanchai's Response: Adam, I didn't say that intelligent play does not exist in the DC version. It most certainly does, and I most certainly get the brain fry as well as my pals when playing the game, and I definitely witnessed it at NYG2 come 3:30am each night (morning). Intelligence does not necessarily mean quick thinking. This is somewhat similar to the graphics argument we had where you seemed to imply that a higher polygon count meant better graphics. IMO, this is not the case, a higher polygon count run smoothly tells more about processing power and the potential to use those higher polygon counts to better effect, but I find graphics different from processing power. In much the same way as this argument goes, I was saying that sharper play, quick thinking, dexterity, and good reaction are not the only elements of intelligent play. They do exist in there, but they're not everything about intelligent play, but I will admit they are necessary. Does this make sense yet, what I'm speaking about? Perhaps I didn't express the context properly... The context is like what I described in the above... One man playing extremely intelligent over another man playing really stupid does not mean an intelligent match imo. The likelihood that someone will play more intelligently is increased with the time increase to allow a person to actually think more, if they think at all. Notice the key word "likelihood" which I'm using in the same way as saying "probability." Does this say that DC's faster pace makes the matches stupid? no. Does it say that DC matches are "not intelligent?" no. Does it say that DC matches are "always" less intelligent? Not really, it may imply the chances of them being, but that's a question that directs more towards the players of the game than the game itself.

My point is that despite how small the speed difference is between DC and Arcade is, it's still noticeable (as far as I can tell as even I noticed it) and it still gives room for maybe an extra thought or two, but that can mean a lot in matches of the intensity that exists in the VF games as well as other fighting games. I never said the DC version is dumbed down though, I just meant to say it's different a bit, but you know I still love the DC version. BTW, wouldn't the fact that you guys trained on VF3ob (you and Andy did train on ob, right?) imply that you guys trained on the arcade, AT A SLOWER PACE? I'm talking about training as in when you guys were initially playing it, learning the game through it, etc... Does that make sense? Maybe I misunderstood the history of NY Crew.

I don't think DC version is a bad version, and I would love to play it. If I had a choice between Arcade and DC, I would pick the Arcade version, but that isn't a black and white thing such as: "I prefer Arcade, so DC sucks." I never said that. Again, did I say "great thinking can't be a part of the DC experience?" No. I'm not teaming with Rich in the overall topic of this thread (well the topic it has turned to be, I'm also not saying that is Rich's perspective, however, I feel that you might have interpretted that I'm teaming with Rich in an argument whether it is against you or not). Rich and I have our agreements as well as our disagreements. Same as you and I. Same as everyone. I'm just hoping I haven't offended you enough to get bugged by me beyond a normal level, because you're an awesome guy imho. This is just a disagreement or a miscommunication. IMO, it's a very tiny disagreement (smaller than it would imply in these threads) that is more miscommunication than anything. I didn't post my thread to attack you Adam, I posted it because I just decided to put a voice out on the board which I thought was reasonable. I hope you didn't take it as an attack. I know that when these types of threads go on, emotions pop up (we may not even admit it) and sometimes the shit even hits the fan, but your arguments are fine by me. I was just saying my argument. Not against yours, or anyones... that wouldn't be a proper argument anyways.

The DC/Arcade difference is not as significant as say, a standard non-timed Chess game versus a 5 or 3 minute blitz session.... However, time pressure shows in many cases how Chess matches are affected. It may sound like it's a more relevant analogy to the time given in rounds, but I think the analogy works for the "pace" of a game which can be altered by the speed. Many players will confine their thinking and acting time into a much smaller interval in the blitz games... The exhageration of the effect as displayed in Chess matches is that in blitz games, a vast understanding of the board position responses (opening result, etc, opening even, endgame if it even comes to that) is a much bigger requirement than a general intelligence in analyzing a situation on the spot. Whereas, the difference between the two in a non-timed game or a slower paced game is a bit more leveled. The person with the vast understanding will still play well most likely, however, the person who takes it situation by situation and actually does analyzing in the match (and the understanding player does this as well, I'm not saying he doesn't) has a bigger chance in the match. Hence, the likelihood of the match is a more intelligent overall match. It's not always so, because it's more of a probability issue than a law. Again, that extra bit of time might make the match less "intense" or focused on "quick-thinking," but between the different types of players, more intelligent decisions are more likely, at least for the person that needs that extra time. It doesn't mean he's a less intelligent player because he doesn't think as fast or sharp as his opponent. He may just have less experience (and don't you dare think I'm using myself as an example lol), but he might have enough fundamentals to cope with, but that added time will help him follow through. Not to mention that he might just be considering more variables than his opponent and the extra time allows him to factor those variables.

Anyways, I'm rambling the same thing over and over again, and I hope you understand what I meant and what I mean. I'm not saying you're wrong Adam, don't think that. You have a right to defend the DC version, and I'm not attacking it at all. I just think that the arguments are over two different things. Almost like a situation I've seen in a russian play called, "The Three Sisters." Simply put, two men (in this case, more than that) arguing over two completely different things that might have a subject in common, but they aren't hearing each other out because they're recreating the context of the subjects. Such arguments will not be resolved until it's discovered.

In any case, peace/images/icons/smile.gif

-Chanchai

P.S. DC version is imo, good enough to use as a competition platform, but do you really oppose the Arcade version to be used as a tournament platform? What if there was a chance of somebody rigging it up so Agetecs can be wired into the arcade setup? It shouldn't be that difficult, maybe tedious each time a controller is changed, but I know it's possible. On a sidenote, I respect that MB2 will be NYCrew's tournament and I'm personally fine with the use of DC and that it is their decision. The fact that you're holding a tournament is wonderful imo, it's so much time and effort. The fact that you prefer DC version doesn't bother me at all, it's probably more convenient to you guys as organizers, but it's also besides the point. However, if someone was willing to setup an arcade setup with the use of Agetecs, would it be possible to hold the tournament with that setup, give everyone a full day or two of preperation to adjust to the arcade (as well as discuss amonst themselves how they may have to modify their play if they have to indeed), have the extra DCs and monitors/projectors used as a training tool while the actual tournament is held (and recreation use), and run the tournament that way? I would see the use of the arcade as a stronger tribute to the series overall and give everyone a "unique" experience in this country where arcade tb almost does not exist in an arcade (maybe the death of tb at Sunnyvale marked the end of that legacy). Hell, if we wanted to, we could even hold a DC tournament on a different day. If the results seem that different, it might say something or spark some interest (hopefully not wars over it). Anyways, these are questions and remarks that at the very most may imply a request, but are not requests overall. Just a consideration. No matter the setup of MB2, I'm down for it as long as it works out in my schedule and I can't wait to hang out with the NY Crew again (maybe even show them that I've learned a thing or two, though I know I'm not up to par yet).

I don't even want to know how many spelling errors or word-context-misuse I've used in this post... don't remind me hehe.

Anyways, again, peace bros /images/icons/smile.gif<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Chanchai on 10/9/00 06:07 AM.</FONT></P>

 

I'm agreeing totally with Myke on this one. My point, many posts ago within this thread, was that the issue was the sticks not the game. Shota agreed right away. My disappointment was that if an arcade machine could be available for a tournament, the DC players would prefer to play their 'copy' of a game.

Who knows, if an MB2 is planned properly giving ample amounts of time for organization, there may be more than one TB machine available for tournament play.

cheers,

<font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>

 

what's hiro saying?

i'm wondering if i should hold my breath or not for the answer...

--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"