AM2 Vs Project Soul (The Real Competition)

Discussion in 'General' started by masterpo, Apr 21, 2020.

  1. masterpo

    masterpo VF Martial Artist Bronze Supporter

    IMO The real competition for who could make the best fighting game experience has always really only been between AM2 and Project Soul. The competition for who could make:

    • Best Character Designs
    • Best Stages
    • Best Fighting System
    • Best Textures
    • Best Music
    • Best Fighting Styles
    • Best Character Customization
    • Best Artistic Direction
    • Best Animations

    The competition heated up the most between Virtua Fighter 4 EVO and Soul Calibur 2, Quest Mode vs Weapon Master Mode. Items earned in Quest Mode vs Items earn in Weapon Maser Mode, Titles earned in Quest Mode vs Titles Earned in Weapon Master Mode.

    From there it went to battle of character customization Soul Calibur's CAS vs VF brand of fighter customization. Both of these games are masterpieces in their own right. Both teams AM2 and Project Soul have extremely talented artists, illustrators, designers, programmers, animators, and producers. Tekken has never really been a contender in this competition. DOA and Team Ninja would occasionally make a noise, but the real battle for who could make the best fighting game experience has always been between the AM2 and Project Soul Teams. I think AM2's VF made Project Soul produce better Soul Calibur games and Project Soul made AM2 produce better VF games. I imagine the AM2 team probably has great respect for Project Soul and vice versa.

    We need AM2 to raise the bar for fighting games by producing another VF innovation. We need this rivalry to continue because when AM2 and Project Soul compete the entire FGC benefits. Team Ninja ultimately tries to keep up, and the Tekken franchise, well, they do the best they can with what little they have to work with:LOL:

    I want to see AM2 and Project Soul get back at it. Project Soul laid down the gauntlet with Soul Calibur 6, now AM2 needs to show them who's boss with a Virtua Fighter 6 offering.

    I think though Project Soul has always had a bigger budget to work with than AM2. There are just so many more Soul Calibur artifacts, art books, OSTs, intro, ending movies, gallery's story modes, that its hard for VF to compete on those items. VF has to rely on a pure battle system, nuance, balance, and beautiful graphics to keep them in the game.:cool:
  2. ICHIBANin10000

    ICHIBANin10000 Well-Known Member

    How much do you think your opinion is worth, given youre a scrub who doesnt know the frame data of a game he's played for 13 years? No matter how much better the mechanics are in Soul Calibur, you're a scrub and couldnt optimize the mechanics to any efdect in Sould Calibur Virtua Fighter , or Tekken. Keep getting your ass kicked in Vf 5FS PSN then go offline for 6 months.
  3. masterpo

    masterpo VF Martial Artist Bronze Supporter

    @ICHIBANin10000 I think both AM2 and Project Soul have very skilled people. Actually the FGC has been fortunate to have both teams. Project Soul does seem to be better financed than AM2. It seems like the Soul Calibur budgets have always been bigger than what Sega gave to AM2.

    I wonder what VF would like like if it had a bigger budget;)
  4. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    That is an interestingly good comparison. Because the original Soul Calibur team (before Soul 2), used VF as a reference, for the game system of Soul Calibur. Also, the other good thing is, you are not the only person who noticed that. People have been making that AM2 vs Project Soul comparison, for about 20 years now.:D

    And to be honest, that comparison was originally made, during the dreamcast days. With VF3 and Soul Calibur 1. Why? Because unlike Soul Calibur 2 and later Soul games, the original Soul Calibur on the dreamcast, played similar to Virtua Fighter, which was kinda shocking. Which is probably why, I always suspected, that because it was a dreamcast console exclusive, that sega deliberately or secretly got involved, in the production of that game. The other interesting thing is, those two games were direct competitors, on the dreamcast console.

    According to one of the directors years ago, Soul Blade and moreso the original Soul Calibur, were both actually inspired and based on VF, and not so much on Tekken. If you have ever played Soul Calibur 1, you'll notice it doesn't play like Soul Calibur 2, or the later Soul games. People up to this day, still say Soul Calibur 1, is namco's best work. Why? Because it was like the first time, that namco made a game, that was combat wise, able to compete with VF.

    Well they did hire some former AM2 guy, who used to work on VF, who still currently plays VF and is a big VF fan. Maximillian Dood did mention this, on one of his vids last year. Apparently, they hired him to work on the combat system of Soul Calibur 6. I don't know his name though, but it would be cool to find out. Does anyone know his name?
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
    masterpo likes this.
  5. masterpo

    masterpo VF Martial Artist Bronze Supporter

    Oh that's some history SC history I didn't know. Wow. Soul Calibur is a beautiful game, with beautiful graphics, stages, music, animations. Both Virtua Fighter and Soul Calibur put the ART in Martial Arts. Its clear to me that AM2 and Project Soul have respect for each other's work. Even with out insider or behinds the scene information the two teams behind these video games have to be aware of each other, and in competition with each other. They both raised the bar so high that other fighters can't really compete.

    I want Tekken to be as good as VF or SC. Its just not:( I don't care how many millions of copies Tekken 7 has sold. Just because 10 million flies eat shit doesn't mean shit tastes good. Tekken 7 is not even as good as Tekken 6. I want DOA to be as good as VF. Its just not:( But as arcade fighting games go, if any arcade fighter seriously competes with VF in terms of graphics, animations, stage design, character design, and overall beauty its Soul Calibur:holla: Like Virtua Fighter, Soul Calibur is a masterpiece. The only criticsim I have for Soul Calibur is the pyrotechnics, and explosions. Too many fireworks obscure the nice graphics and animations. And for each SC game the fireworks just got worse. If it were not for all the pyrotechnics in the Soul Calibur Animations Soul Calibur would rival VF in every area. I personally enjoy the 8way run system and CAS.

    The whole FGC is fortunate to have VF and SC. These games represent the best in the genre.:cool:
  6. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    Aye thanks. Gaming and gaming history, during the pre dreamcast to dreamcast era, was really amazing, especially if one was a fighting game fan back then. And during the dreamcast era, that whole epic Soul Calibur 1 vs. Virtua Fighter feud, was epic history back then. Gamers back then even wondered, if Soul Calibur was going to take the crown from VF. Because the Soul Calibur 1 team, was coming really, really close to doing so. It's sad they were not able to do so, with Soul Calibur 2 and the later Soul games, since those sequels, had a more watered down basic combat system, in contrast to the original Soul Calibur game on the dreamcast.

    I don't blame ya. But interestingly enough, both games were made to cater to different audiences, with different tastes. Which would explain the whole combat system of DOA.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
    masterpo likes this.
  7. masterpo

    masterpo VF Martial Artist Bronze Supporter


    Yea, I definitely did not know that back in the day people were comparing Team AM2 to Team Project Soul, or that there was an official friendly competition, but it makes sense that it would be. Are you aware of any articles, interviews, etc from back in the day about the competition, or comparisons between AM2 and Project Soul?

    Yea, the watered down thing for VF and SC is a tough one. Sega and Namco want to sell more games. If they make it to hard or complex then it cuts down on sales and the game gets a reputation for being to hard or complicated. if they water the game play down they loose credibility its a tough tight rope to walko_O The goal is to somehow make the fighting engine legitimate enough for the tournament scene and at the same time make the game accessible to as large as audience as possible.:confused:

    I think the only viable solution to this conundrum is to have either a tournament mode, or tournament difficulty setting where spacing, hit boxes, tracking, timing, throw windows, move lists, etc are all calibrated for advanced play, and targeted toward competitive tournament scenes. And leave the other modes and difficulty settings for normal civilians.:cool: It would cost a little more to have two versions of the game in one package, but the extra cost would definitely be offset by major increase in sales.

    Not every body that plays fighting games wants to compete or play the game at an e-sports level or tournament level. In fact most ppl who play fighting games are not willing to put in 20+ hours a week for years (its just too much:eek:) Some of us have real women, girl friends, boyfriends, whatever to attend to. So Soul Calibur made the right business decision in the long run. SC has deep enough game play. Yes it could be deeper and tighter, but then it would sell less:( And Project Soul knows how important the story mode and single player modes are to the success of the franchise. AM2 could take some pointers from Project Soul in this regard.

    All in all both games are truly master pieces. AM2 and Project Soul deserve the legendary status they have. VF takes first prize, but Soul Calibur comes in a very close second;)
  8. lordraptor

    lordraptor Member

    I think artistically (designs, music, direction, customization), for the most part, yeah, Virtua Fighter and Soul Calibur are at the top nowadays, absolutely, however, when it comes to a fighting system, fighting styles and animations, Tekken still competes and in fact, triumphs over all fighting games, it's a bit flashier than VF and SC yes, but the system itself, the core design is brilliant, it's the most successful pure fighting game for a reason, I think that before Tekken 6, Tekken used to be on top in every category, they toned it down a bit after Tekken 5, but the Tekken games are still great to this day, they just don't have as great a sequels as Virtua Fighter and aren't in as great quality artistically as Soul Calibur anymore, so Tekken is on a very minor, downward trajectory, unlike Virtua Fighter, which just got better and better in each installment, or at least Soul Calibur, which stayed consistently a beautiful piece of art when it comes to design, music and direction.
  9. masterpo

    masterpo VF Martial Artist Bronze Supporter

    No offense M8 but Tekken is not the most successful pure fighting game. So your core premise is wrong right from the start;)

    You can't measure success by sales numbers, or whether a FG has a world tour. :meh: Sry that's not the metric. Think about it this way; McDonalds sells more hamburgers than anybody. But we all know the Big Mac is not the best burger out there (its not even close). Right now, Tekken is the McDonalds of fighting games. In terms of the quality of 3D Arcade Fighting game engines here is the rank:

    • VF
    • SC
    • DOA
    • Tekken (and Tekken 7 has become more of a 2.5D game)

    Even if Tekken has more ppl playing it right now. So what! If your measure of success is the number of ppl playing the fighting game or the number of ppl who bought a particular fighting game you're missing the point altogether.:LOL:

    Tekken's fighting system is not even as good as DOA's:oops: I own almost the complete Tekken series and have played it since the PS1. At best Tekken is a distraction. Its the kind of fighting game you have a temporary fling with until you're back home and can play the real thing. Tekken is okay as 3d arcade fighting game and that's about it.

    There was a similar phenomenon with the Microsoft Windows operating system it had the largest market share and sold more copies than any other operating system, all while everyone knew it was the worse out of all of the serious computer operating systems:notworthy: Constantly crashing, loosing data, incompatibility problems, unreliable , virus prone, etc. just the worse in comparison to Mac OS9, Linux, Unix, Solaris, VMS, Mac OSX, Next Step, and OS/2 But Microsoft Windows had the most sales and most users. So some ppl thought it must be the best:confused:. But instead it was the worse :LOL: Microsoft Windows was a triumph in Marketing and Advertising and strong arming vendors. But it is a mediocre operating system at best. This is true for Tekken. It sells more than other 3D fighting arcade games and has more high profile tournaments etc. but deep down inside most informed Tekken players know that Tekken is a pretender in comparison to VF, SC and DOA. The balancing problems that have surfaced in Tekken over the years are legendary. With the Leroy Smith character being the most recent example. How dare you log into VFDC and imagine you'd get away with that Tekken nonsense.:ROTFL:

    Tekken has never had better animations, graphics, stages, character designs than VF, SC, or DOA, and to be clear the fighting engine has been inferior from the beginning. You should look up some of the historic Tekken critiques from Tomonobu Itagaki:ROTFL:

    Don't confuse superior marketing/advertising with superior fighting engine:cautious:

    The last version of VF5FS has a demonstrably better fighting engine, balanced roster, diverse roster, more game modes, better customizations, better character designs, better graphics, better stage designs, and higher quality netcode than Tekken 7. And it was released for last gen consoles.

    When you add up the cost of Tekken 7 base game + all of the DLC/Season Pass Bul!#%^ and weigh that against what you actually get for the money, Tekken fans should realize they've been robbed and Harada and Namco should be ashamed of their product:meh:

    Maybe Tekken 7 is the best Hustle out there, Naw .. .DOA 6 has that distinction, But Tekken 7 wins for convincing the most players to spend the most amount of money on the version of Tekken with the least amount of features and game modes(y)
  10. lordraptor

    lordraptor Member

    Well TC, I think you're missing my point, when I say most successful, I guess I could've phrased it better, I don't care about the sales number, I was referring to its competitive scene, which is thriving right now, better than any other fighting game ever has, if you're not a fan of the fighting system, that's ok, but then again, you're wrong (and I'm gonna explain to you why later) and you're in the very small minority, I don't hold that against you, also, as someone who does like DOA, I can't say I agree with you, the DOA system has nowhere near the same depth and complexity as VF or Tekken, at best, it's closer to Soul Caliburs, which is a simpler game mechanically than VF and Tekken, but even that is an unflattering comparison, as DOA is still not even close to being as dynamic or fun, which is most likely why it's not as popular as its 3D competitors in tournaments.

    Virtua Fighter is without a doubt a quality fighting game mechanically, but Tekken rivals it, it's just as complex and has just as much depth as VF and in fact, is harder to learn and master than VF, just knowing how to maneuver properly in Tekken is hard enough but also mandatory if you plan on playing on a competent, competitive level.

    everything outside of the core gameplay was not even a part of my argument and quite frankly, almost every single fighting game of the last 2 console generations has that problem you brought up, being the product not measuring up to the price of said game, with the introduction of DLC and pre-order seasons that are available for purchase before you even know what it has to offer and obviously, a lack of single player content, Tekken unfortunately has been bitten by that bug eventually too, but as late as only the last installment, meanwhile every other fighting game has already been using these shady tactics since the previous generation of consoles, so while I agree with you that Tekken has some problems, even more problems than a lot of its competitors, those problems are completely outside of the base game, which is, the main reason why this series is still so successful.
    masterpo likes this.
  11. masterpo

    masterpo VF Martial Artist Bronze Supporter

    Okay, so you're measure of success in this case is the competitive scene. Fair enough.

    But I have a few questions along those lines:

    • Which competitive scene are you referring to?
    • The online competitive scene?
    If online competitive scene are you referring to PSN or XBOX Live (these are different you know)

    In your consideration of the competitive scene are you measuring the quality of the competitors? In other words does the competitive scene boil down to about 20 very high level players and the rest of masses are mediocre at best. Keep this fact in mind. Most of the players in the VF community (most of the players) are highly skilled (very highly skilled). So although the community might be smaller, pound for pound VF players are just better.

    How or what do you know about local competitive scenes that don't stream or post results on youtube, twitch, or websites? In my little town we have reasonably active competitive scene but its all local (set up by txting, chats, and word of mouth) and if you're not from here you know nothing about it whatsoevero_O

    • When you refer to competitive scene do you mean world tours and EVO? If that's the case how many actual people are you talking about that participate in those tournaments? Out of the number of people that participate how many are actually masters?

    "Competitive Scene " can and does refer to a lot of different FGC gatherings. Surely you're not suggesting that Tekken is dominant in all of them:cool:

    Yes I agree with you in terms of the level of participation in some competitive scenes Tekken is more successful than VF, SC, or DOA. But that my friend is only in some competitive scenes, not all competitive scenes.;)

    In terms of depth of fighting engine :ROTFL: there is a big difference between a complicated fighting engine (which Tekken has) and a complex fighting engine (which VF, SC, and DOA ) have. Do you know the difference between complicated and complex? Yes you're right Tekken is more difficult to master that's because Tekken is complicated. On the other hand VF is considerably deeper than Tekken because VF is not complicated but it is complex. If you don't completely understand the difference between complicated and complex please take the time out to update your knowledgebase. Its very relevant in this case.

    Yes if you want to get more specific in defining which competitive scenes you're referring to and what statement you hope to make about the competitors in those competitive scenes, I'm sure I'll agree with you that in some areas, among some ppl, and in some cases Tekken is more successful (as it relates to counting numbers of active joysticks) But like I previously posted for now, Tekken is the McDonalds of 3D arcade fighting games. It sells the most, but by no means is it the best fighting engine. Not even close.

    But if you're a Tekken player and you're truly happy playing Tekken 7 then that's the important thing. Here's to many fun and rewarding matches:) But don't fool yourself,
    just because you may have spent a hundred or more dollars on the game and have invested some large amount of hours, and there are lots of other people like you that have done the same that it means Tekken has a better fighting engine. I'm afraid that's not how it works M8.:ROTFL:

    At this point there is nothing Tekken can really do to fix itself. Its community suffers from acute cognitive dissonance and is all in on Tekken's excessive launchers, floating, fireballs, whirlwinds, sparks, explosions, clouds, pyrotechnics, wall splats, conniption level back dash requirements, disproportionate character models, lack luster stage designs, missing and substandard single player content, intolerable load times, framed obsessed focus, bland repetitive customization options not to mention price gouging. And the "groupthink" that has the Tekken community believe that Tekken is the superior 3D arcade fighter is distressing and believe or not cause for alarm:cry:

    Sry M8 I can spare Tekken no quarter....:ninja:
  12. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    The first thing I noticed is the snarky Lion pic. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what that means. Lol!:ROTFL:

    Lol! That definitely doesn't sound like Tekken at all. Except for the flashy part.

    I used to play Tekken alot back in day. And even I am honest enough to admit, tekken's game system, mechanics and combat, is nowhere near VF, or even the Soul Calibur series which Po mentioned. And even I realised myself, just as many others before me, that the gameplay of tekken is crude and basic like heck. That is one of the reasons why many gamers including myself, dropped Tekken and moved on to more interactive advanced games, like VF and Soul Calibur back then.

    And the core design and gameplay of Tekken, is no different and is yet very similar to Fighting Vipers, and many other lesser known basic 3d fighting games, that tried to compete with VF back in the 90's. And the same core design gameplay seen in tekken, is nothing new or brilliant at all, because it already existed in a more advanced way in VF, and even to a lesser extent, in numerous lesser known 3d fighting games. And embarrassingly enough, VF and some of those other games, did those wonky over exaggerated combat mechanics and juggles alot better, and made it more fun than Tekken 1 to Tekken 7. Bloody Roar, Fighting Vipers, and even that rough fighting game called Plasma Sword, are a few of many good examples of that.

    Well, to be honest, I play tekken, and like many other people, I can say from personal experience, that Tekken is not hard to master at all, and the game is not that deep or complex. The gameplay is very basic, and plays like those old school low budget 3D fighting games, that were competing with VF back in the 90's.

    Another thing, all of the things people strangely take years to master in Tekken, can easily be stopped or dealt with naturally, by noobs or fighting game veterans, who play more advanced fighting games like VF and even Soul Calibur.

    As for movement in Tekken, it is not fluid as in Soul Calibur, VF, or even close to that animal fighting fest called Bloody Roar. Tekken also has a horrible sidestep evade, that doesn't work most of the time, and that needs to be fixed and programmed properly. Besides VF, Soul Calibur 1 got the sidestep evade thing right, and it actually works. And that game was released in 1998 in the arcades, and on the dreamcast.

    And most importantly, they need to update the combat system and overall mechanics in Tekken, because it is many, many years behind the VF games, and Soul Calibur 1, and even in some odd cases, it's behind some of those so called 90's 3d games, that had wonky gameplay.

    Another thing people seem to forget, is that VF and Tekken are in different categories. VF is a more sim type fighting game, and Tekken is a more cartoony, over the top, exaggerated arcadey style fighting game. That alone explains everything.

    Also, this is an AM2 vs. Project Soul thread, and not a "Tekken is da better game miaaaan" thread, so I'm done writing. Lol!:p
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  13. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    There were a few on the net many years ago, but I don't know if they are still around. But also, you had to personally frequent many arcades like myself back in the 90's, to hear the numerous conversations made by gamers, and fighting game experts, moreso made by non Tekken fans, in the arcades. In my case, the comparison was easy to see, since both games were on the dreamcast.

    At mods: Sorry if I posted twice, one post after the next. The internet by me is messing up with typing messages, and posting on this forum today.
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  14. Iwazaru

    Iwazaru Member

    They made best gameplay (within series) in doa5 since, idk, doa2?doau? days, but... "teh community" is what kills it. Not sure about doa6, some say its step further, some say its a step back, and others were angry that everything is punishable. Mechanics-wise, i mean.

    Overall it's damn depressing to witness all that bias against doa by most people (most of which are only pretend that they play tekken, lol), even if it never reaches highs of VF. More depressing is only lukewarmness to vf by general audience, haha.

    Speaking of 90s fgt, any love for Tobal 2 ? :)
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
    beanboy likes this.
  15. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    I have never played it. But hopefully, Tobal makes a return one day. Strangely enough, I wish that Battle Arena Toshinden, makes a return too.
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
    Iwazaru likes this.
  16. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    I re-read your post and noticed this.
    Wait,.......for real?:holla:
  17. SDS_Overfiend1

    SDS_Overfiend1 Well-Known Member

    Hey..... Does anybody remember that time in Tekken 4... the tekken no one talks about. When they focused on combat, spacing and meta doing away with juggles!? I remember that one. The one that tried its hardest to be like VF But just couldn’t.. yeah.. Pepperidge Farms remembers!
    beanboy, ShinyBrentford and DomAug like this.
  18. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    The whole AM2 vs. Soul Calibur 1 team, during the dreamcast days was really epic. If VF4 was released on the dreamcast as it was supposed to, I was really curious to see, how that would have turned out, since SoulCalibur 1 was always said to be namco's best work.

    It's amazing how SoulCalibur 1, is the only 3d namco fighting game, to get a legit 10 out of 10. Even famitsu gave it a perfect score. I remember some VF fans back then, were a bit sour when they saw that. And worse, when everyone later learned, that VF4 was heading to the PS2. Sega should have still released a dreamcast port though.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020

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