Aoi close range offensive threats? Dunno if doing shit right

Hello, aoi noob cake here.

I seem to have hit a wall. I can't seem to find a way to make opponents stop thrashing around and block so that I can get work done like throwing or use slower damage sources that doesn't get interrupted by 2+p. There are times where I hit the guy with 4+PP 3 times in a row and he's still not convinced to press guard because he probably thinks that he just needs to abare once through my piss poor offense consisting of 5+Ps, 2+Ps and 4+PPs to get a huge life lead. Yes my mechanics are that shitty probably due to misinformation or lack of understanding on how aoi is supposed to be used.

question 1: Whats Aoi's standard procedure to deal with low punches (2+P).

-I can't seem to get 64+P sabaki to work and I realized that the sabaki part of the move only works when I'm at a +2 advantage.

-I think in earlier vfs I could punish a blocked low punch with a mid throw but I could have been deluded. Is it still possible? or only against whiffed 2+Ps?

-when I choose to sidestep the low punches, I get clueless on what to follow it up with...

question 2: How do you kill the guy after a successful sidestep?

-I'm lacking some final showdown fundamentals and this is one of them. What is it that you're supposed to do if all the opponent just holds 4,P & G to be immune from highs, mids and all throws? Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question since I got used to tekken and expect free floats whenever I successfully sidestep - am I expected to just 2+K+G in said situation?

-is there a way for aoi to kill sideturned opponents?

tl,dr: low punch was arousing at first but now i have std. help.

 

1. IF they are predictable with their low punches, just reverse them and go for the ground throw follow up. For the 64+P, I just stick it out at anytime really. Im pretty sure it sabakis on the first frame. I could be wrong, but it works most of the time for me. By mid throw, I assume you meant a low throw. On a whiff, you can punish with a low throw. On block, standard procedure is to go for a 4P to stop the next attack they try.
2. When they hold PG, they still have to guess which throw you are doing. Mix up the inputs. They really shouldn't be able to break every throw if you are rotating your throws. Use her many...many cancels to fake an attack and go for a throw, also. Her Tenchi - 4+P breaks their guard for a follow up, too (It's +15 ON BLOCK). I havent experimented with it much, but you can definitely follow up with anything that's 15 frames our less when they have their back to the wall. Very good questions, btw.

 

1p is very good for perpetual blockers also. It's quick, kinda looks like 46+P to some people and of course, hits low. Your at a slight disadvantage on hit (-2) but it knocks down on CH, which sets up some really nice oki options.
In regard to the sidesteps, it takes 23 frames to recover from a sucessful evade, so the move you sidestep is very important. Side stepping a jab or 2P is actually bad, cuz they still have the advantage, I believe. I know someone else can help on the sidestep situation. I've seen some kicks (Sidekick, i think) crumple on hit, but I don't know if that's on CH or not. Can anyone clarify this for us?

 

is the answer to all your questions about close range offense and killing and all the other answers are answers that will turn you into a setup-based scrub with no basic game.

 

Question 1:
Backdash then 3K ( or even 66K and 66P+KP ) when you're at small advantage / disadvantage if you predict a low punch.
If you're at more than +4, use 4K or 43P+K and combo time.

Question 2:
Just P, it gives you +4 on block on a sideturned opponent if you get a successful dodge.
Or mix with throws, elbows, 43P etc if you have nothing guaranteed.

On a sideturned opponent, there is nothing to "kill" your foe.
Some options:
3P and 4P gives you +1 on block side turned.
3K crumples only on CH
4P hits CH if he tries to side step while being backturned. From here, you are at backturned with +7, and BT P+KPP can't be ducked (even the last hit ) and will leave you at +6. BT P+KPP is a full natural combo if he tried to attack or duck, and BT P+G catch throw for side stepper.

 

Sorry guys, my bad. 64 sabakis even on a -1 disadvantage. But even so I still don't know shit on how to use it. The setups I could only find while labbing is:

1. opponent blocks my standing (+2) then 64
2. opponent blocks my 6 (-1) then 64

Lets not forget that 64 takes a month to execute at 25 frames.

I guess I got spoiled by aoi's 236 which can sabaki even at fucking negative 9 disadvantage.

Wait, what!? I thought when you're side turned you could escape all types of throws just by holding & the direction where the opponent is (in this case ).

How horrifying. I was trying to find alternatives because I was reduced to doing elbows 70% of my games online. But I'm glad to know I was doing some correct procedures. Now this leads to...

question 3: elbows - how the fuck they work?

I appreciate it if you guys would share what goes in your minds when:

1) aoi's hits (+0)
2) aoi's gets blocked (-5)

This is the part I find where it turns into a huge clusterfuck of risks with no rewards for aoi.

Help plz, I dun wanna be a scrub forever.

 

Kingo, what would you consider small disadvantage? -1 through -3? -4? Thank you for your input. I really don't know much about Aoi's side game. Anything in general i should know to take advantage of when it comes up? What's your personal follow up to Tenchi'ed punches and elbows? Same options as a side turn or no?

 

Just a cents, coming from a not newb but not yet pro Aoi user, the 6 4 P is THE weapon against 2P scrubs. Basically I feel the mindset of an Aoi player must be the they HAVE to respect you but you must only give them feeling the feeling that you are respecting them even though you're not. The 1st round has to be more dedicated to pattern reading. Since most scrubs love the 2P,that's their panic button. The move they do to turn back things in their favor. This is where Aoi shines because she doesn't have to necessarily give the turn back to the player.If you push someone they are generally are going to push back so going the offensive with P(cancelled into G) pokes can start things off. And since she can counter most things thrown at her you have to make them fear you so you can limit their options and have them become predictable.
1st of all a sabakis works through a hit detection system in the game. In this case, if they 2 P a few frame ( not sure the exact number) when executing 6 4 P it will automatically counter it so those 23 frame is not the counter-move phase of the sabakis but rather the attack phase of the sabakis. The best way to see this is to go into the dojo and set the Defend and Counterattck with 2P under the CPU options and try it out there.
So basically when you get a feeling a how the move activates and when you start to feel how to put pressure on the enemy you'll notice that 2 P will most often follow in almost predictable fashion.
2 more things: if the 6 4 P attacks actually hits it will leave the enemy in a low state which you follow through with a low grab. However on CH you have combo off it ( I use 2P into the PPPK string). But on block, like other sabakis, will leave you on strong disadvantage (-7 i think) so a fuzzy is out the question.

 

The basic , elbow game in Virtua Fighter is nearly universal. on block gives you +2. Most jabs and crouch jabs are 12f. Most s (including Aoi's) are 14f elbow class moves. So if you throw out a that gets blocked and follow it up with a elbow, it will connect on the same frame as 12f jabs/crouch jabs. In this game, when two moves connect on the same frame, the one with the higher damage wins out. In this case, your elbow will win out every time as long as you aren't delaying the input at all.

Having said all that, the reason that this is important is because on counter hit, will give you +7 and forces the opponent into a standing state. In this game, you need a few frames to be able to duck throws. (this doesn't apply to attacks) Because of this rule, this forces a Mid/Throw mix up on your opponent. They have to either guess the throw break/abare to avoid getting thrown, or block in fear of eating a counter hit set up of some sort (Aoi's + or are two solid options here.)

This is the real reason why people sometimes have to respect on block. Knowing this, you can train some opponents to freeze up and set up throws, lows, or guard breaks. Whatever your character has for that situation. The real reason why people are annoyed by spammed crouch jabs is because they are fast. Even if it's a medium disadvantage on block, people frequently mess up punishing properly when they guess the opponent is gonna follow it up at -5. 12 frames is not a simple thing to react to unless you have trained yourself to do so. I suggest hitting up the dojo, recording the dummy to do something like back to back s, then practicing interrupting the second one properly.

 

Except will beat not only but every other attack in the game from +2 (or +3 against LW jabbers) upwards, making it a superior choice.

Unless you're in the +4 to +9 range where or or are more damaging options.

 

I feel like when people just say that elbow beats out everything and leaving it a that is a bit misleading to people that don't understand what it sets up. The reason the elbow is the better option for anti is because of the fantastic mix up it sets up on counter hit (which is explained in my last post) and is WAY less risky.

There are specific set ups from other character that I think the sabaki might be the wiser choice to fit in against, but as a general anti move, it doesn't seem like the wisest choice.

 

Yep, -1 to -3. Don't forget low punch's range is short and backdash is strong.
64P sabaki works only at advantage and 0 and -1. Not really the kind of move I would call "the weapon against 2P".

And for side turned options, 4P CH is the better option IMO. Unfortunately, it's high.
And for elbow and punch parry, I just PPK followed by oki.

 

Ok, cool. Thank you. I was going with PPK because of the guaranteed damage and oki. Good to see Im on the right track. Tenchis against knees and kicks: Just 33P+K or 66K and proper follow ups?

 

No, it's not. Misleading is suggesting doing sabakis, jumping moves, reversals or whatever against . Every such suggestion just takes the player that much further away from developing a strong VF game. Once you are airtight at beating out attacks when you have the advantage with you add on by using more powerful moves like the ones I listed at higher advantages. You should constantly be looking up moves people use and go "Oh, it's -6 or block, I can use to beat out all his attacks if I block it" or "damn, only -2, have to use " and just hammer in those frames to learn your best and most damaging options in every situation.

When you got that down you will be ridiculously strong against players who don't.

 

It's misleading when you don't explain the mechanics behind it because people just see it as a 0 on hit -5 on block move that does low damage similar to how the OP mentioned in one of his posts in this thread. Even seeing that it's +7 on CH, a lot of people don't even know that you can't duck throws at that advantage so they don't get how strong of a set up it really is. This is why they just assume "oh 64P sabaki is 60+ damage. Fuck elbow, I'll just do that." and that's the misleading part.

I only bring that up because the subject of anti 2P comes up all the time in the forums and the shoutbox, and the generic response is always "oh yeah, elbow." and that's it. While I've been learning the game, it took me a while to learn of the strong set ups for this very reason. It's simply way more helpful to add a explanation for the mechanics that make it effective so people can know why it is so important and such a integral part of VF basics.

On a last note, while I don't think the 64P sabaki is the best choice, if the person is being super predictable with 2P, I see nothing wrong with resorting options other than elbow so long as they net you more damage. That doesn't dull your basics. That rewards you for having good yomi. Strictly adhering to the frame game makes you super predictable and can mess you up in the long run just as bad as relying on gimmicks.

 

After reading the replies over and over again while labbing, I seem to have changed my play for the better.

At first it never occured to me to just do 6+Ps instead of 6+PPs. I didn't realize conceding that 10-something damage to reduce my frame disadvantage from -1 to 0 meant a fucking lot for aoi. But more importantly, It never occurred to me that that "hit-checking" mundane shit like 5+P, 2+P, and 6+P which are fucking less than a quarter of a second was standard practice in vf.

To know what i feel, refer to my avatar.

What I used to do vs people doing hundred-hand-slap on aoi's dick was block in-between then 6+PP until his 220 life points run out which takes as long as floodwater in my house to recede and hope it doesn't lag and eat a jeetkundo jack knife. Now I learned to:

1) 6+P (if hit) = 64+P
2) 6+P (if blocked) = defend, I guess
3) 6+P (if CH) = 43+P+K

I can't get any more convincing with #3 since it's a damage source (the kind of threat I was looking for since the start of the thread). Btw, what does "Opponent crouching (H: 6F)" from the movelist mean?

I found some. Gonna lab 66+P and 43+P when I get home later.

Not related to the discussion; I labbed if low throws can punish blocked 2+P so I set the dummy to crouch and mash P. Surprisingly I was able to low throw in between 2+Ps but it's probably not practical because I have to input the d+P+G (holding them helps) when the dummy's 2+P is around the 6th frame from the 12 frames.

I swear, the game is as fucking deep as galactus' asshole. Looks like I need to lab sideturn advantages, too.

This made me think a lot. I never thought of doing a 16-18f heavy attack if I block a 2+P (+4f).

Hypothetically, if I knew an opponent is gonna do 2+P then 6+P, could I block his 2+P then throw him before his 6+P hits me?

Me included because generally in fighting games I learned that you can't throw opponents when they're in a stun state unless it's a character specific trait.

I'll keep that in mind. But for now, imo, playing the frame game strengthens standard mechanics. It's like building muscle now and learning skill later in martial arts.

question 4: why the fuck is standing P so hard to connect?

I've learned that I need to do more standing Ps to get into that elbow aggression. I just realized that getting the dinky little thing to connect is harder than I thought. It's easy after I get successful sidesteps or after the free P,K from tenshi but dashing in to P gets me complications.

How do I prevent 66+P from coming out whenever I try to just dash in and 5+P? Do I do 66 then G then P? or should I learn to do something like 66 then 236+P?

 

66~~ works like a charm for me.
1. How many frames does it take to go from a standing to a crouching position?
2. Also, in regard to the 6P, would it be better to 6P and recover (-4), or 6PPG to cancel? Is there a way to measure how many frames it takes to recover from a cancelled attack? I feel the cancel method is better just because of the Sundome options and all, but simply allowing her to recover is at -4. I suppose ot greatly depends on the situation and the opponent's habits.