Aoi side turned Game

How to get your opponent side turned ?:
- by escaping one of his throw, it leaves him generally at -6 and side turned
- after 6P+G, 8 / 2 throw, or mid kick and elbow / punch parry. Go for your PK guaranteed, it gives you +7, and your opponent is still side turned.
- K+G (NH +6) hits evaders for a nice +9 and side turned position ( little chance to hit against opponent who know ECD )

Your options on a ST opponent:

- side throw but easily escapable...

- 3K side kick
Its gives you a side crumple if you opponent tries to attack or crouch back dash: time to go for a 80+ combo
ex: 3K ( side crumple), dash 6K+G, 6K, 64P+KP
If your opponent crouches, you get +11, which means free 6PP (+2 after, and opponent still ST ) or side throw attempt. Or PPK if he tries to just standing G.( crouching and 2P will beat that, so it's better to go for 6PP)

- 43P+K for a crumple combo if he attacks.

- 2KPP is natural combo on CH if opponent tries to attack.

- 4K and 66P covers people who evade when they are ST. Nice thing about 66P is that on CH ( if it hits an evader or an abare opponent), the foe is still ST and you are at +12, which means free 64P+KP.

- 3P on a ST opponent is +1 on block. And on CH, you have a free side low throw attempt.

- 43P against happy sabaki people and crouchers.

- 4P is full circular ( but high )
on a blocking ST opponent, you're BT with +1 and opponent is still ST.
If it hits an evader, you are at +7 and BT, and your opponent is still ST !
The last hit of BT P+KPP on a ST opponent become unduckable and leaves you at +6.
BT P+KPP become Natural Combo if he tries to duck or attack.
If he evades, you have BT catch throw. Of course, don't forget about BT 2P.
So BT options become very interesting as a ST game.

Note that after K+G CH, you're at +9 and you have a free low punch unless your opponent does a instant low crush move like Lion's 8K ( thank GentlemanThief for the info)

 

Doesn't 66P cause side crumple?

 

It does. Turns out that it does not, derp. Honestly, I typically do 66P after most normal throw break situations (the ones when you're at their side and are +6), as the 66P is going to beat almost any attack, and a lot of throw breaks leave you at distance 2 or so, making a lot of other attacks whiff.

 

No, it doesn't.
You get +12 on side CH.

 

I swear on the flying spaghetti monster that I have seen this move crumple on side turn CHs... but you're right; in training mode it's just +12. Next time I see this happen I'll save a replay.

 

It crumples only on a CH backturned opponent. It happens when fighting Kage / Lion who like doing a move that leaves them BT.

 

Funny that this thread was just made! I quit Aoi because of her side game, but maybe you guys can help me solve my problem.

Back in August, Noodballs translated an article from Arcadia about a defensive tech.
When the opponent is side turned and -9 he can not block P.
Since it is possible to DUCK the P, the opponent can actually do a fuzzy, this will stand up in time to block any mid attack. He can also escape side throws since they have a fixed direction. The worst part, this fuzzy is super easy, you do not have to CD.

If you do it correctly, it will beat P, low throw (by entering the correct direction during duck), any mid attack and side throw. Using a late extra throw escape, you can also escape a delayed throw (but you have to guess the direction).

Anyway, this means that there is literally no use whatsoever for Aoi to try to get the opponent side turned (at least not at -9). There is NOTHING she can do except to delay throw. Other characters have either guard breaks or low attacks that lead to knockdowns on normal hit or bigger damage (Kage for example has a move that if guarded has an unblockable low followup etc) but Aoi has nothing.

* Aois low attacks are useless (in this situation) since they are negative on hit, even from the side. Her d+K, P, P does not work since the K requires CH for the second hit to combo, and there is no reason for the opponent to attack.
* She does not have a guard break

How do you deal with this technique when playing Aoi? This removes all incentive for the opponent to actually attack, or dash, or do ANYTHING except fuzzy from side turned.

Right now, my strategy revolves around NEVER EVER going to my opponents side when I play Aoi, since it kills her throw game. Any ideas on how to beat this defensive tech?

 

+9 ? I suppose you are talking about K+G on CH.. a move what will never hit any good players who know Evade Cancel crouch dash...
We are talking about Aoi here, so don't except her offense to became all of sudden godly on ST opponent lol.
Also, the timing is hard to fuzzy both PPK and a elbow from +9 side turned.
Blocking PPK and 3K with fuzzy requires less strict timing.

To beat this defensive tech from side, I would OM and throw, or sundome K or throw. The usual mix ups.

 

The timing on the fuzzy is one frame (when Aoi uses 43P as mid attack), so yes it is hard, but not impossible.

I dont really understand, how would OM help against fuzzy from side turned, could you explain please?
Besides, OM can be low punched on reaction.

 

Only if you are not busy fuzzy while low side throw escape then standing and holding a side throw escape etc to beat PPK and mid options from ST. Besides, if you are playing such skilled opponent, having a guard break or a low move that KD don't change much, they will all be ducked and others mids blocked anyway....
The OM get you a regular front throw ( so 1/3 guessing ).

Why this conversation anyway ? You'll never get +9 with ST.
More +6 or +7.
But if by any chance you land K+G on evade and get +9 or more, go for a low punch.
It can be only avoided by instant jumping moves like Lion's 8K, Sarah's 8K+G or Eileen's 9P.

Now if you are looking for a guard break or low moves, well, don't play Aoi.

 

Maybe I am not getting my point through. So I will just state it bluntly; not a single option in this thread is actually valid.

Well, after 4P on block maybe you can force a nitaku, assuming the throw / mid guessing game can not be fuzzied at +1, which I think it can. (fake edit: I just realized her lp from back turned is true low, may she can use that somehow...).

And the center of the problem is this:
Why would you ever attack in ST? Attacking in disadvantage is always a guess that the opponent throws so that the defender can regain initiative (no throws means that guard is safe and gives frame advantage).
Why would you attack from ST when you know, with absolute certainty, which throw direction will be coming? There is no mid/low guessing game either, since eating a low attack will end the situation and put Aoi at a disadvantage. Standing guard is unbreakable in this situation!
Besides, why risk 90+ damage from a side combo, when you can just NOT ATTACK and still get away absolute 100 % safe?

Only AFTER the side situation has ended and you are subject to a delayed throw is it reasonable to attack. But then none of Aois attack options are as good since they wont hit from the side!

I was hoping that maybe, at +9, I could find some way to force the opponent to attack, but a guaranteed 2P seem to be the best she gets. If there are actually players dumb enough to use jump attacks to avoid the 2P, at least you have a guessing game and can use attacks from the side. =)

 

What ?
What would you suggest, when you escape a throw and get a ST situation ? Ringing out yourself and blame SEGA ? Giving up your advantage just because Aoi has "nothing" and let gently your opponent turn around ? LOL

And to answer your question "why risk 90+ damage from a side combo, when you can just NOT ATTACK and still get away absolute 100 % safe?":

Because playing safer doesn't get you damage. That's why there are evade, reverse nitaku, sabaki, rather than just standing and holding G.

I understand your point, but what you ask for is silly. Aoi is not akira or Lion or Kage.. so keep quiting.

 

Yes, whenever you end up on the side you delay throw. That is the only reasonable option. An opponent that attacks from the side is an idiot.

 

They're an idiot, until they read that you're going to delay throw or OM throw them and abare you into the next zip code. It's a stupid play, until it's genius. :3

One mostly useless side point: 1P is actually +1 against a side-turned opponent.

 

The thing is that you can just fuzzy and perform the abare once the sideturned situation is over, this stops delayed throw and does not risk you getting hit with a big combo from ST.

Anyway, the good thing is that you can avoid ST by buffering throws after evades (throw buffered after evades come out from the front), and by using PPK to knock the opponent down (rather than PK) as a small punish.

 

And if they have a kick sabaki, they can use it if they predict you are going to side kick.
Same goes for an elbow or punch sabaki.
That's why they would attack. It's risky but not stupid.

But it's more common and safer to just guard or evade.

For a cheap low damage, 2KPP: if the low kick hit ST even on NH, the rest of the string can't be interuptable or duck.

 

40:40


Aoi and Lau proves all my points today. =)

Aoi does sweep, it connects. She dashes forward but messes up the meaty timing on K+G.
Lau is hit with a counter hit and does exactly what I suggested: he fuzzys and then pokes once he has turned forward. Aoi wastes her frames with a low kick cancel and attempts to throw.

Seriously? Kick sabaki from side turned? Really? When you can guard and gain initiave 100 % safe?

 

Seriously, are you going to tell me that your Aoi never uses sabaki or tenchi, because "you can just guard and gain initiative 100% safe" ?

 

EDIT: To be clear: you are only 100 % safe in side turned, and thus I would not use sabaki ever in that situation.
VF is all about risk and reward. In FS the reward of a low punch has been lowered considerably, even a hit does not guarantee a nitaku situation.

In VF, the only reason ever to attack from a disadvantage is when you want to stop throw. If you know for certain that the opponent will attack, what do you do? Guard or attack?

A sabaki is like a 2P but with higher risk and very high reward, it stops throws but also starts combos.
From side turned, the question is if the reward of a sabaki is worth the increased risk. I would say no, because the ability to stop throws is a considerable advantage that is completely useless in side turned. The problem is of course that pretty much anything is safe, the opponent does not have to go with mid kick but can use any launcher without much risk when attacking from the side, a sabaki becomes a huge risk to you, but not to the opponent.

If you start to use sabaki instead of fuzzy guard, you open up a guessing game that you simple does not have to.

If your opponent have a guard break (or like Kage, a string that is mid, then low and the low part cannot be blocked), the situation is different. You already have a good reason to attack and indeed, do a sabaki.

 

Most safer option attacking ST to get huge reward is a mid kick, as it combos on CH and very safe ( -3 only ). So when you know your opponent likes going for that option, yeah, kick sabaki. It's not about safer option, it's about mix up and guessing game. Why someone would attack ( in my case, with a sabaki ) from ST ? I just answered your question.
It doesn't mean that you are going to 3K all the time, and your opponent is going to kick sabaki all the time.

By the way, if you are talking about Kage's 4P+KP, it's a HIGH then low.