Aoi throw frame data

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Hadaka, Mar 7, 2002.

  1. Hadaka

    Hadaka Member

    I was reviewing the throw frame data on virtuaproject.com and a few things puzzle me. But I'll start from the basics.

    First of all the execution frames for all the throws are 8 frames - and none for combo parts - which is obvious. But the ground throw is listed as 19 - is the frame count the same regardless of how far Aoi has to run for it - she does pretty long runs every now and then. And I suppose the ground throw can started the moment the opponent is falling towards the ground - but can it grab the opponent from the air or does the opponent need to be on the ground when the move hits?

    Then the next data - what do the numbers on the "block" paragraph mean? Is that when the throw is escaped? Or is it when it whiffs? Apparently there is only few variations there - the normal P+G throw is -8 frames, df+P+G is -3 frames and everything else is -6 frames. So, what's happening there?

    Then the next data - the long combo throw has two starters - f>b+P+G and b>f+P+G - the first one does 30 points of damage, the second one 20. But on the "hit" column, there are values for these two throws - for the first one it's 0 - for the second one it's +5. So, what does this mean again? Does it mean that you get a 5 frame advantage with the second throw? If so, what does it mean? Is it that you have 5 frames more time to do the second part of the combo throw? Or does it mean that you are at a 5 frame advantage if you don't do the second part, but let the characters stand up?

    If someone really knows what's up, a reply would be nice. But if no-one knows and there are just guesses, those are welcome as well.

    And on a related note - all reversals are listed as being 1 frame execution moves - including b+P+K+G, the YY stance. Is this really so? 1 frame is enough to get the reversal out? Even with the YY stance? And can reversals be buffered? I would think they can be - so if I'm at 13 frame disadvantage after a blocked K,K - I can still reverse the (Aoi) opponents low punch that is 12 frames execution? Then, has anyone tried to time out the frames that a reversal is effective for - as in, the window of frames during which a suitable attack must come in to be reversed?

    So - a few questions here - hope there are some answers as well.

    Thanks
     
  2. LittleWild

    LittleWild Well-Known Member

    The frame count remains the same no matter how far the opponent is. The ground throw also has a fixed range, if the opponent is outside the range, the throw will whiff.
    The ground throw cannot be executed while the opponent is in the air, the opponent must be on the ground. (fyi, you can smack a floating opponent down with d/f+P+K)

    The block section means the disadvantage that Aoi suffers when you opponent breaks the throw. If the opponent breaks P+G, he can throw you.

    As for the +5 hit advantage for b>f+P+G, I think it happens if you let both opponents stand up without continuing the throw.

    Reversals can be buffered (usually with a throw escape), but the timing is pretty strict. I don't know how long is the reversal window.
     
  3. nxw0016

    nxw0016 Well-Known Member

    I am kind of surprised by the 1 frame reversal, but for a different reason: instead of being surprised at how short it is, I am surprised that there IS 1 frame execution time.

    If I am not mistaken, in VF3, the idea of reversal is you can reverse as long as you can block (that is, you are not in a hit-gauranteed situation). However with 1 frame execution time of reversal, let's consider the following situation:

    Akira, for example, QR, his opponent dashes into close range forcing a mid-hit-or-throw selection, Akira guesses mid-hit coming, so he decides to use a mid-reversal (instead of standing block, let's say). Now let's suppose the opponent indeed uses a reversable mid-attack. OK here is the problem, if reversal takes 1 frame to execute, does that mean it will leave Akira in 1 frame vulnerability immediately after QR has completed? If so, then as long as Akira's opponent times the mid-attack right (hits Akira in that vulnerable 1 frame), then Akira will be hit EVEN THOUGH he has guessed right.

    The above situation certainly would seem odd and would be against the intuitive concept about reversal. I thought about this issue not long after I saw the frame data weeks ago but did not bring this question up, because I thought I could verify it once I got the VF4 US release. Now since someone has brought up the frame data issue, it might be interesting to have people think about this together.
     
  4. LittleWild

    LittleWild Well-Known Member

    There is a move that enters hit detection in 1 frame?
     
  5. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    nxw, I don't know what the recovery time is after a QR/TR in frames, but a 1-frame execution time is about as "instantaneous" as you can get. Think about it...even inputting a button requires 1-frame. Also, the QR's recovery is not all that good by design but this is compensated by the fact that you're safer while QRing then TRing.
     
  6. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Then the next data - what do the numbers on the "block" paragraph mean? Is that when the throw is escaped? Or is it when it whiffs? Apparently there is only few variations there - the normal P+G throw is -8 frames, df+P+G is -3 frames and everything else is -6 frames. So, what's happening there?

    Yep, as LittleWild mentioned, "block" stats for throws are the disadvantage that Aoi faces if her throw is escaped. Watch out for throws that give -8f when escaped, it means that the opponent has a guaranteed throw situation if he breaks your throw.


    I would think they can be - so if I'm at 13 frame disadvantage after a blocked K,K - I can still reverse the (Aoi) opponents low punch that is 12 frames execution?

    Nope. If you are -13f and the opponent does a 12f ex move, you cannot reverse it. You can only reverse after the end of -13f.

    Here are two more examples:
    (a) do -13f move that gets blocked. Opponent does 13f ex move, you cannot reverse.
    (b) do -13f move that gets blocked. Opponent does 14f ex move, you CAN reverse because the reversal is 1f ex and the reversal will take precedence over the attack when both happen on the same (14th) frame.


    Also, the QR's recovery is not all that good by design but this is compensated by the fact that you're safer while QRing then TRing.

    Generally, TR is better than QR when you fall
    (1) face up head towards
    (2) face up feet towards
    (3) face down feet towards

    QR is better than TR when you fall
    (4) face down head towards

    If you QR in (3) or TR in (4) and get hit while rising... it's back stagger time!
     
  7. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    I don't have the Blue Book yet, so I'm partly guessing here, but:

    Ground throw - I believe the 19 frames is execution time. I.e. it takes 19 frames before the CPU will register the ground throw as a "hit" and begin the animation. I don't think the different "running" around animations actually count in the 19 frames.

    Block - It's the number of frames advantage/disadvantage after Aoi's throw is escaped.

    Dan throws - HCF+P+G dans begin with 20 points, HCB+P+G dans begin with 30 points.
     
  8. uk-guy

    uk-guy Well-Known Member

    err...dunno if this is the case in VF4 PS2 but Jap Aoi players told Ryan that Player 2 Aoi is better that Player 1 Aoi with regard to damage and move recovery. If given the option Aoi players always use player 2 Aoi. Sorry I can't go into specifics at the moment, but it reminds of VF2 and how some characters had more powerful Player 1 and 2 variations.

    If VF4 PS2 is a perfect gameplay port than this should also be the case for Pl 1 and 2 Aoi on PS2
     
  9. LittleWild

    LittleWild Well-Known Member

    It situation QR(4), can you low throw the opponent?
     
  10. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    It situation QR(4), can you low throw the opponent?

    QR(4) = face down, head towards

    I'm certain you can be low thrown. This is a scenario I face many times against Kim's Aoi:

    - I get crumbled by Aoi's double-stop (b, df+P) then he does f+KK (I'm falling face down, head towards)
    - If I TR, he can back stagger me, so I usually QR to avoid the rest of the OTG combo.
    - If he's anticipating the QR, he can low throw me, or stagger me with a sidekick. He's done both before. I'm not sure how guaranteed this is .. maybe he got away with it because I was just holding G during the QR.

    I'll try to test further tonight, but I have definitely been low thrown and staggered when I tried to QR from face down, head towards position.
     
  11. LittleWild

    LittleWild Well-Known Member

    Thanks Myke.
    That is exactly what I had in mind.

    I have seen some Japanese Aoi players doing the low throw after the above scenario and I wanted to see if it is confirmed.
     
  12. feii

    feii Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    WEIHAO888
    hmm onli for the head down towards u situation.the QR from tat looks different.u LT him somewhere dunring the start of the animation
     
  13. Hadaka

    Hadaka Member

    Whoops yeah, counted it the wrong way in the message, meant to pick a 14 frame execution move.

    Thanks - that cleared it up.

    So does this mean that if I have a 13 frame disadvantage, I can block a 13 frame move buffered in?
     
  14. Moby

    Moby Well-Known Member

    I just wanted to expand on what feii says here and confirm Myke's comments... when you QR in face-down, head-towards position, you get up with a different animation sequence; QR in this situation makes you VULNERABLE to low-throws, just like in a regular <font color=orange>TR</font color=orange>.

    However, a QR in other down-situations results in the character sticking his two legs up in the air before standing up. You are NOT vulnerable to low-throws in this situation. You are considered a regular standing non-defender here, and are thus vulnerable to high-throws, as explained in the Arcadia Black & Blue books.
     
  15. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    So does this mean that if I have a 13 frame disadvantage, I can block a 13 frame move buffered in?

    Nope, you can block a 14f ex move, but a 13f ex move will hit guaranteed (assuming the blocker has very fast reflexes and starts buffering the 13f ex move while in blockstun).
     
  16. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    However, a QR in other down-situations results in the character sticking his two legs up in the air before standing up. You are NOT vulnerable to low-throws in this situation. You are considered a regular standing non-defender here, and are thus vulnerable to high-throws, as explained in the Arcadia Black & Blue books.

    Just to clarify the part about a regular QR being vulnerable to high throws... the QR'er is *somewhat* vulnerable, but the high throw is not 100% guaranteed, even with perfect timing. I used to think it was guaranteed, until I played Wen's Jeffry, and he would QR with the kip up followed by KKP, and I'd get hit by the attack *all the time* whenever I tried to throw him.

    This is corroborated in PS2 VF4 training mode, where they teach you how to low punch to break a low throw attempt after you QR, and also you can ETEG after you TR to avoid mid-level attacks.
     
  17. LittleWild

    LittleWild Well-Known Member

    IMHO, I think that when you do a QR/TR you are at a disadvantage of say -4 or -5 frames. If that is right it explains why you cannot low throw an tech rolling/quick rising opponent who buffered in a move during the TR/QR animation.
     
  18. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines too... close to throw-guaranteed, but not quite...
     
  19. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    eh? you can't low throw a QR opponent at all. Remember, they aren't identical. One's low and one's high.

    The high one (QR) can be thrown every time I think, with proper timing.

    You can't low throw the TR because, as you said, the move was buffered. They keyword is buffered. You're unthrowable during the roll, and the instant the roll ends, you go into the execution of an attack, which is generally gonna foil a low throw.
     
  20. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    The high one (QR) can be thrown every time I think, with proper timing.

    I disagree. The way I think it works is that you are only vulnerable to throws when the QR/TR ends, except for the QR exception that Moby noted. I think you can buffer moves in during the QR/TR so that the execution of the move starts immediately after the QR/TR ends. Since you're immediately in execution time you're never vulnerable to throws, and the attack wins. I don't think there's any frame advantage to worry about at all. As Myke wrote in his break falling guide, the TR/QR recovery is a constant and the attacking player only has to worry about what move he last performed to know how much time he has to work with vs. the rising player.

    Hmm... after rereading your post, I guess you do have the same concept with regards to getting up with tech rolls /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    I could be wrong.........
     

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