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Arcadia 124 VF5FS System notes

Discussion in 'Arcade' started by noodalls, Aug 7, 2010.


    SUGATA Well-Known Member

    Yes, you are right, the difference now is that in Tekken you can (after a lot of training) to recognize the type of Throw visually and escape it (so, more less random),
    but in VF5FS without left/right/both hand throw's animation we must just to guess the type of Throw escape (so, its random, no mind now, and its very sad to me)... so, for me, there is now defference between skill and noob player in throw escape game In contrast to what was previously before VF5FS (multiple TE provides the differense between skill and noob players, and more desire to develop my techniques and skills.
  2. TheWorstPlayer

    TheWorstPlayer Well-Known Member

    The new excuse will be "this game sucks, if this was VF:5 I could have ETEG that. This game lacks skill."
  3. Jigohro

    Jigohro Well-Known Member

    It's a big step towards realism in VF. In reality you can't input mutliple TE, and everything has to be done on reaction [​IMG] .

    Thanks for the translation, that clears a lot of stuff up!

    SUGATA Well-Known Member

    Excuse me me, but i disagree... old VF TEs system was much more realistic, i think.
    In reality, in Russian judo & sambo school for ex:
    Distribution of protective actions (against throws)on the levels of classification:
    1) Before taking seizure [grabbing motion] - 12,8%

    2) Before losing rival equilibrium (in the presence of capture)[tsukami movement to disbalance opponent]- 32,1%

    3) Level of attack has begun (at the entrance gates and in isolation)[beginning of the throw]- 31,2%

    4)On the development of the throw (the phase of flight, landing)[during the throw and landing]- 23,9%

    So, throw defense ("Throw escape") is more dependent on 2),3), that is very dependent on the work of the vestibular apparatus. In game the number of buffered throw escapes determines the level of your current vestibular potentiality (and your current preparedness)to prevent your disbalancing and as a result to escape the throws.

    RESUME: old VF throw escape system (that was depending on your skill to input the most number of multiple TEs) i think was much more realistic and better reflecting the skill level of players {more advanced player => more advantage, less random}.
  5. Mooseking_Lion

    Mooseking_Lion Well-Known Member

    My time and experience with T6 is very limited, but I would still think that VF's throw system even in it's FS form is a little more advanced than TK.

    I don't really know how to describe it that well but I'll just say that the feeling I get when playing VF is that throws require a lot more precision in the timing for throws to land, Namco fighters in general seem to have the easiest throws and escapes going around, even if in FS it's dumbed down theres still a level of mind games there for throws on par with 3S, I happen to like that sort of feel amongst a game with high levels of technicality it adds a layer of unpredictability which I find very entertaining [​IMG]
  6. MarlyJay

    MarlyJay Moderator - 9K'ing for justice. Staff Member Gold Supporter

    If you're saying that more advanced players always put in more throw escapes or that the number of TE's inputed is someway related to skill at VF, you're very wrong.

    Some of the very best VF players only ever put in 2 or even 1 TE but still get the escape. Why? Yomi.

    The new system is basically forcing the player on the defensive side to read their opponent and make a correct guess. There is nothing random about it. The victor will be the person who is better at the simple mind game, as with rock, paper, scissors.
  7. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    Sorry for the highjack but...
    Woah, is that putin? Does he actually train/spar in public? [​IMG]
  8. Jigohro

    Jigohro Well-Known Member

    Risking taking this a tad off-topic, allow me to respectfully disagree with your disagreement [​IMG] .

    In the materials you provided, multiple throw escapes the way they are done in VF would be interpreted as "1) Before taking seizure [grabbing motion] - 12,8%". You expect a throw and "pre-empt" some kind of action to prevent being thrown in a few directions BEFORE you know what kind of throw that is. That is, as those numbers reflect - not particularily effective.

    2), 3) and 4) all mean getting away at some point during a throw already attempted, after having identified what kind of throw that is (a sweep, hip throw, pick-up etc.) and its direction (back, forward, corner, to the side). That is, a single escape on reaction, as opposed to pre-empting. Incidentally, that's how most animation for escapes in VF look - the character counters the throw rather than break grip before the throwing action is identified.

    Spazzing out as soon as you THINK you may be thrown (ETEG for example) will get you landed on your bum more often then not [​IMG] . If it's moving, it can be thrown.

    EDIT: of course all of this is said half in jest, since in VF or any game you cannot really feel the throw incoming, so all that is left is guessing, really... but still, I prefer 1/3 yomi/mindgame than having a person in-game almost unthrowable thus negating a large part of rock/paper/scissors system.
  9. White_Worm

    White_Worm Well-Known Member

    I don't think you can compare the throw systems from any VF to any Tekken for the simple fact of priority. Tekken throws have high priority, VF throws have lowest priority.

    And with clashes gone, YoHo is the new multiple throw escape.
  10. jinxhand

    jinxhand Well-Known Member

    All I know is after many years of playing Tekken, it all boils down to watching the hands to see which throw is being done (since most characters have a traditional (northpaw) stance vice southpaw, so 1+3 throws "should" be more noticeable, making it easier to break (if I jacked that info up, lemme know). Sometimes you can just break the throw depending on who your opponent, and what throws are better and provide better oki, but even then more times than others its looking at the hands. Throwing beats alot of attacks, except for the generic d+1 (or [2][P] in VF talk). I learned that from the CPU back in the day. And you can't input throw breaks after moves like you can in VF - you'll just do a punch and that might be stopped by the throw.

    Throwing in VF requires more than looking at the hands (obvious). Just the topic of MTE alone is alot to talk about seeing as breaking a throw or allowing oneself to be thrown could produce a ringout, or a positional advantage (in Tekken, there are plenty of breaks that just seem to put the characters at an even advantage - correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that way to me). Giving the player a 33% chance at breaking 1 out of 3 throws allows the player to heavily rely more on yomi imo. I mean granted, imo sometimes doing MTE felt like punching in the popular breaks (2-3 inputs), and more times than others the throw would be broken vs most characters but not all. But now its like you have to make a good guess and there's no real excuse anymore. You don't have to spend half a year getting good at throw breaks, but the depth is still there. I mean if people say that there's depth in tick throwing, and that's only one break, why is it a big deal that MTE is a 1 in 3 chance??? The pressure is on!!! More high octane or high risk/high reward I feel. No more clash to save oneself from utter destruction.

    I wouldn't even worry about the system changes as much... Whatever makes the game evolve and bring people to the game is what makes me content. Think about how people reacted when VF added a 4th button, or when Tekken added wall stages, or when the vs series became 4 button instead of 6. Adapt and overcome like the millions of SC, SF, TK, MK, and KOF players did. As long as there's no stage infinites like in DOA3, or character infinites like in T5, or severe glitches like in SC3, I'm good. I do wish another character or 2 were added, but that's my preference. I wish wall stage damage occurred during the fight and not at the end (a la Bloody Roar [rip]) but that's my preference. At the end of the day, it's still VF, and there are tons of things that make the game stand out as such. If it does come to consoles--- never mind...
  11. ShinjukuATM

    ShinjukuATM Well-Known Member

    Nobody is better at rock,paper,scissors if u play it right and mix up well.Its just luck!Same goes 4 the new throw system:If I do every throw direction 33% and mix that up well so it cant be figured out in wich situations I use what throw u will have 33% to escape my throws.Its like that believe it or not!

    All u 1TE guys should play poker instead of VF...I like my VF with all in one (yomi,reaction,high level stick techniques.MTEs ruled.R.I.P.

    Funniest thing is when people say its easier to understand.OMG WTF is hard to understand about MTE

    Here is my idea to prevent players with TE execution problems from doin throw whiffs all the time:lazy TE.make it possible to hold g all the time during MTE.Just pressin p+direction so the danger of throw whiffs is gone.Even the noobiest player is able to mash one or another extra TE.
  12. BlackDragon37

    BlackDragon37 Well-Known Member

    MTEs decreased the danger of getting thrown.

    1TE increases it.

    I see it for the better, TBH.
  13. Flyingguillotine

    Flyingguillotine Well-Known Member

    Ahem, wasn't the Arcadia feature supposed to have a complete movelist for FS? Or are they planning another MOOK?
  14. Signia

    Signia Member

    You can't be serious. Rock-Paper-Scissors mechanics are the cornerstone of VF and many other games. Of course, that's not a bad thing. RPS mechanics allow for countering your opponent's actions. They force you to actually pay attention to your opponent and their patterns. Also, even though they are called RPS mechanics, actually comparing them to the shallowness of a game of rock-paper-scissors is misleading.

    The differences are that each option has different risk/reward, which change based on conditions you must recognize. These conditions influence decisions and you must consider how your opponent is percieving these as well as being self-aware as to how you appear to be percieving these conditions. The skill involved in being successful at the highly complex RPS subgames is tested extensively in this game and it would be foolish to think that yomi skill levels are equal, and the only thing separating top players from beginners is their "high level stick techniques" and reaction time.
  15. ShinjukuATM

    ShinjukuATM Well-Known Member

    I never said yomi skill levels are equal.But the problem with yomi is that if u play enough so u (nearly) know all options u or ur opponent has these guessing games become more and more random.What really makes strong players is the combination between yomi and reaction.U cant have super strong yomi without having good reactions.Same goes 4 reactions without yomi:if u react fast but with wrong things all the time u lose hard.
    So basically yomi is:have the knowledge,use it smart,but u better do it as fast as possible.

    Anyway, this has nothing to do with high level stick+button madness.I personally have much fun practicing crazy inputs.As long as these techniques dont get too strong over easier to perform fundamentals, i think they fit in well in fighting games.
    And it was definitely not the case in 5vanilla or 5R.Tetra said in the Fuudo interview that Itazan is sometimes just usin 1 TE.Itazan was very successful at 5vanilla, a game that featured MTE.Theoretical u could have been a top player in Japan in 5vanilla as well as 5R without using TE at all

    BTW Im not worried that I wont like FS.The animations are super hot and the new MTE is abare.So what?The game is good,its the most recent VF,i wanna play it.TGS yet to come
  16. jinxhand

    jinxhand Well-Known Member

    What are you saying??? Are you refering to MTE as crazy inputs, or easier to perform techniques???
  17. SDS_Overfiend1

    SDS_Overfiend1 Well-Known Member

    Back then i couldn't rap my mind around this until i realize something from a long time ago.... Japanese Player won't and will not tell you exactly what they are thinking. Why make yourself 20% Safe with 1 escape when you can become 40% sfe with 2? Don't make sense coming from player who break throws like nothing. Also making it point that the japanese almost never change throw commands. When they go for the gusto and they don't short change themselve on getting that damage.

    I personally prefer multi throw escapes. ITS not my fault i chose to learn it and i have a advantage that IF there was a Proper tutorial mode like EVO people could see it clearly to learn. Oh well i could go on for days but i could care less. Just release the damn game
  18. Plague

    Plague Well-Known Member

    Speculation. Nonsense, really. You can do better than to post this.
  19. SDS_Overfiend1

    SDS_Overfiend1 Well-Known Member

    Why Not plague? Did i offend you? please do not try to make me seem like a idiot here on my opinion. Don't bring it my way Seriously.
  20. Plague

    Plague Well-Known Member

    I'm looking out for you, man. I've got your back when I say things like that. You can't possibly know what Japanese players are actually thinking.

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