Arcadia 52 - Change Moves

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by Myke, Aug 11, 2004.

  1. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage


    This month's Arcadia (Issue 52) features a small system introduction and a detailed look at Change Moves.

    Download Page 1
    Counter Hit
    - Light Counter (x1.3): interrupt attacks 15pts or less
    - Medium Counter (x1.5): interrupt attacks 16pts - 24pts
    - Heavy Counter (x1.6): interrupt attacks 25pts or more
    Note: Light, Medium and Heavy Counter hits are also known as Yellow, Red and Shaky Red Counter hits, respectively.
    BT ARM
    - to be translated
    Upper Class Hit Effect
    - to be translated

    Download Page 2
    Change Moves
    - Akira: (A2) /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif and (B2) /versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif (1 frame /versus/images/commands/g.gif)
    - Sarah: (A2) /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif and (B2) /versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif
    - Jacky: (A2) /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif and (B2) /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    - Pai: (A2) /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif and (B2) Bokutai /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    - Lau: (A2) /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif and (B2) Tiger Stance /versus/images/commands/k.gif

    Download Page 3
    Change Moves
    - Jeffry: (A2) /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif and (B2) /versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    - Wolf: (A2) /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif and (B2) /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    - Shun: (A2) 6dp /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif and (B2) /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    - Kage: (A2) /versus/images/commands/D.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif and (B2) /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    - Aoi: (A2) /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif and (B2) /versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif
    - Lion: (A2) /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif and (B2) /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif

    Download Page 4
    Change Moves
    - Vanessa: (A2) OS /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif and (B2) DS /versus/images/commands/g.gif/versus/images/commands/d.gif or /versus/images/commands/u.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    - Lei: (A2) /versus/images/commands/D.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif and (B2) /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    - Brad: (A2) /versus/images/commands/D.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif and (B2) Slip Left /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif
    - Goh: (A2) /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif and (B2) /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif

    If anyone has time to translate the notes for each of the change moves then I'm sure it would be appreciated.
  2. noodalls

    noodalls Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    My attempt at translating the move changes. A few things in there that I didn't get, like move names and also I don't really know the different stuns in english. There's one that knocks them onto their backside, and also a kyu something stun (slightly differnt character to crumple.) Yes, I should know them, but they aren't coming to mind atm.

    Akira A2 f+P
    A short reaching elbow. Like an elbow, it will cause stagger on crouching hit. The execution is slower than VF4, which is to say elbow class (14 frames.) On guard there is no guaranteed counter, but the disadvantage is large. In addition, it is disadvantage on normal hit and the advantage on CH is small. The attack is slow, but you can change to this move for the good situation after it.

    Akira B2 K+G (release G after 1 frame).
    The knee from VF4. The guard frame data is the same as the Evo knee, a mid weight punch will connect. Differing from the Evo knee, it won't connect on the ground, and it is slightly worse in range, however it does have the benefit of avoiding low moves during execution. In addition to avoiding low punches if used when slightly advantaged, it can also be used to beat out low full circular attacks in reverse ni-taku situations.

    Sarah A2 b+K+G
    On the spot, she spins her leg and brings it down on the opponents head. It can down an opponent on normal hit, and a pounce is guaranteed. It is guaranteed middle class punch counterable on guard, but it tends to space out so that coutnering can be difficult. The move doesn't really advance, so throw it out when you feel at middle range. The moves ability to (something something)

    Sarah B2 K+G
    A mid attack where sarah brings her foot diagonally down from above. It knocks down on normal hit, and is elbow counterable on guard. Furthermore, on hit it knocks the opponent down so it's difficult to tech roll. The execution is slow, and it is difficult to apply trying to catch a evading opponent after you block one of their moves, but in using it as a techroll attack it is invaluable.

    Jacky A2 f,f+K
    In addition to knocking down on normal hit, the attack speed is fairly quick (at upper class). As a move in combos, it possesses good properties. On guard it is throw counterable, so you shouldn't overuse it. Also, the step in middle kick has it's reach increased and looks like it can be used well at mid-range. Whether or not you should take this move is a difficult choice.

    Jacky B2 d+K,P
    If the toe kick counter hits, the opponent is crumpled (might be a different kind of stun). If the d+K,P is guarded, there is no guaranteed counter, and on normal hit it leaves Jacky at advantage. Also, the fake elbow back knuckle before change will now knock down on second hit (normal hit.)

    Pai A2 b+P
    A long reaching mid attack that crumples on anything above a mid counter. It is slower than knees (18 frames), but is not counterable and is useful at long range. It will probably become an important attack at mid range. The move before changing gave advantage even when blocked. That move was also used at mid range, but the properties are completely different so comparison is difficult.

    Pai B2 Stance P,P
    A new string from stance. Compared with the mid->high flow of the previous raigekishou this is high->mid. The first and second hit give advantage on normal hit, but the second hit is throw coutnerable on guard. The previous move had the strings following on from it, so it might be safer not to choose the changed move.

    Lau A2 b+P,K
    The first hit has evasive properties, and even on normal hit will combo into the second hit. On guard, the second hit is throw counterable, but on hit will knock down and on CH will cause backside stun. Also the tiger stance has been strengthened, and the ?? also look useable.

    Lau B2 Tiger Stance K
    A half circular low attack from tiger stance. When guarded it is coutnerable with a middle kick (16 frames) but on normal hit it knocks down. Further, as it is changed with the Tiger stance backflip, you have to throw out a mid-attack that you used to use from tiger stance. The back flip now causes backside stun on CH, and so has become easier to use.

    Wolf A2 f+K
    The knee that we've been missing since it was used so much in VF4. As compared to the knee before changing, it floating on normal hit is a big plus. However, if guarded it is counterable by elbows (14 frames) and furthermore the float on hit isn't that high. On heavy weights, you must be careful, as the only thing that will hit is is d+P, D,d/f,f+P.

    Wolf B2 f+P+K
    A special high attack with upper class attack speed (15 frames.) It has reach, and should be used as a low risk attack. On block it doesn't really become disadvantage (1 frame disadvantage) and on counter a ground throw is guaranteed, so it has many pluses. Furthermore, the push upper was also strengthened from before the change, and when this breaks the guard it just about guarantees an Elbow bat (b+P).

    Jeffrey A2 b+P
    The move from vf4 has returned, but its properties have been reduced. It's knee class (17 frames) and is middle weight punch coutnerable on guard. The effect isn't as obvious on hit and so it's not like you can use it easily. The elbow stamp from previously doesn't knock down anymore, but the strings from there still exist, so it's not so bad.

    Jeffrey B2 P+K.P,P
    The first hit is 13 frames, and it combos on minor counter. However, as the damage is about the same as b+K,P it's value is fairly low.

    Shun A2 (DP>6) b+P,P
    A full circular high attack. The long reaching first attack is half circular and high, and can be used from mid range. The second hit, that can be executed when DP>6 is uncounterable on guard, and is a great middle attack. It can be used in combos, and the second hit has the effect of slamming the opponent down.

    Shun B2 f+P
    A mid attack with upper class (15 frames) properties. There are no guaranteed counters on guard, and it causes stagger on crouchers, making it like an elbow. It crouches low during the attack, and will often avoid high punches. Given that the execution of the ?? has been slowed, the uses for this move seems plentiful. On the other hand, the strengthening of the combo string of f+P,K is also worth considering.

    Kage A2 FC,d/f+P
    The properties have decreased since VF4 times, but even so it's still a main weapon. The execution is the same as before the change at upper class (15 frames) and on minor counter it can float, the reach is long; it has many strong points like this. There is no guaranteed counter on guard, so basically you can play with it. Apart from it being hard to land combos after it, no real problems come to mind in looking at this move.

    Kage B2 b,f+K
    An easy to use mid attack with execution at knee class (17 frames.) On CH you get a crumple stun (not sure if this is right) and can go for a combo. On guard, a throw is guaranteed. Also, since the change the speed has increased, and you can go into BT jumonji by holding down the button. Just from this strenghth, it's very difficult to decide which technique is better.

    Aoi A2 f,f+P+K
    A mid attack executing at middle kick speed (16 frames.) A special property is that it is uncounterable on guard, and a P will beat out the opponent's elbow (only -2 on block.) In addition, on CH a combo is possible. On the other hand, the previous move was useful ai fighting at mid range. With this gone, it's difficult as a number of conditional followups have become impossible.

    Aoi B2 K,K
    The first hit is 13 frames, faster than the previous move (14 frames). It is is useful in combos, and the second hit will slam the opponent into the ground. The strengthening of some air combos is a point that can't be overlooked.

    Lion A2 f+K (from VF3)
    A mid attack that floats on normal hit, but is countered by middle weight punches on guard. It is slower than knees (18 frames) but even so its value is high. It avoids low attacks, and if used at even advantage (+0) it will beat out low punches. The ability to go into stance from the unchanged f+K and so mix up various attack strings makes the decision difficult.

    Lion B2 b+P,P,K
    A three hit mid string. The first hit is half circular and has evasive properties, and is useful to mix into attacking patterns. Having to lose the previous move's evasive properties is harsh though.

    Vanessa A2 Offensive d/f+P
    Execution is 16 frames, on guard there is no guaranteed coutner, and on CH a powerful combo connects for good damage, making it a good mid attack. But, comapared to the kat in upper, which as per before is still faster than light weight punches (10 frames) and can lead to O d/f+P,P strings and is very useful defensively in fights, it's hard to throw that away.

    Vanessa B2 Defensive While guarding u or d+P
    It has similar properties to other characters elbows. It's hard to execute at maximum speed, but it is technically elbow class. The heavy body hook is 17 frmaes and on coutner will crumple stun. On guard, a throw is guaranteed.

    Lei Fei A2
    Execution is fast at elbow speed (14 frames) and it knocks down on hit. It is elbow counterable on guard, so it can't be used as a standard attack, but it is big as being used as a guaranteed counter after blocking something like a low kick attack. Combared with the previos move, the properties are the same. On CH the opponents crumples and you can go for a combo, it attacks while avoiding highs, it has these useful properties in attacking.

    Lei Fei B2
    A new string from standing punch. The attack properties are high, high mid, the third hit is half circular, and even if guarded there is no guaranteed counter. A point is, if stopped at the second hit, it shifts into haishiki.

    Brad A2 FC,d/f+P
    It is upper class speed (15 frames) and on CH will bottom stun. There are no guaranteed followups, but it is fairly easy to attack them. The previous rising upper is easier to think of as a good move, but it is middle kick class (16 frames.) If blocked there are no guaranteed counters, so it there are many advantages to the rising elbow.

    Brad B2 Slipping left P,P
    The option from the body break. The execution is fast, and goes from a high to a mid, and can be included in air combos. If the second hit connects with an airborne opponent they are slammed into the ground. Also, the second hit can be charged. If the fully charged hit is guarded, it gives +3.

    Goh A2 b+P
    The motion resembles the previous move, but the execution is slightly faster at 16 frames (middle kick class.) It floats slightly on CH, and depending on the conditions you can go for a combo. The reach is okay, and it can be used effectively at close to medium range. It gives +2 on normal hit, and there is no guaranteed coutner on guard.

    Goh B2 f,f+P+G
    A high catch throw that switches to goh's grab on hit. Compared with the previous move (???) it has no ability to avoid moves.
  3. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    noodalls, thanks a lot for the translations! /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif
  4. Faded

    Faded Well-Known Member

    Great translation.

    [ QUOTE ]
    The execution is slower than VF4, which is to say elbow class (14 frames.)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Praise the lord.
  5. Siyko

    Siyko Well-Known Member

    Thanks noodalls (newdals?) for the translation.

    One thing stands out here....


    conviniently right when I start using his evo 6P. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    And akira's change knee seems infinitely better than the evo knee, unless i'm missing something. It says a mid punch will connect, but its the same as the evo knee? so.. is it -8 or -12?

    and why did they offer change to the two shun moves that I just started using well ;_;
  6. Faded

    Faded Well-Known Member

    well wasn't the knee supposed to get an increase in recovery so maybe they're both -12 in FT.

    Evo knee will still have the advantage of scraping a character of the ground for good damage after wallhits and so forth.
  7. Siyko

    Siyko Well-Known Member

    yeah, but you could easily use DBC or regular K+G instead of evo knee in most all cases. And i remember the knee was said to be -14 in FT... this was probably changed, but i was thinking that the ground scraping knee would be -14. Even if not... beating low punch is pretty damn good.Kinda... mule kick good.
  8. Oioron

    Oioron Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

    K+G is safer than the knee but it doesn't take as much damage. While the DBC is risky if your not sure that it will kill the opponent and it's TRed. So that's why I choose the knee, it's relatively safe even after TR it takes a chunk of damage.

    But then again, Homestay is the only one who punished me consistently with the DBC /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif.
  9. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    Akira's new /versus/images/commands/k.gif also hits off the ground now. I've seen a few Akira's use this as the ground hit where they would have otherwised used the Knee. While not the most damaging, it seems like the safest option.
  10. KiwE

    KiwE Well-Known Member

    As thought; the rising elbow for Brad seems to truelly outshine the rising upper from Evo. It's confirmed faster and in recent clips it also seems to have longer range actually (P-PO Brads useage of it).
    I'm not so sure about the flickerjabs useage though to be honest. SLP's crumble on normalhit is just to sweet and the charged variant here only gives +3 and the hit doesn't seem to crumble or something ever (just a force crouch). Will be fun to play with though / see more of it's usage...

  11. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    Regarding Brad's Rising Upper/Elbow change moves, I think they're both quite balanced in terms of risk/reward and I'm hard pressed to say that one is clearly better than the other.

    Rising Upper: throw counterable on guard, float on counter with guaranteed air combo. (higher risk/reward)
    Rising Elbow: uncounterable on guard, stumble on counter, no guaranteed followups. (lower risk/reward)

    In the end I think it just comes down to choosing which move suits your style the best.

    As for the the Flicker Jab - Chopping Blow combo, I think it offers Brad players more versatility than the current Slipping Left Body Break:

    - The Flicker Jab is a reasonably fast "poke" from Slipping with combo followup. This adds another layer of guessing to his Slipping game.
    - The Chopping Blow slams on air hit, so you can use Slipping in an air combo now, rather than always use Ducking. /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif - /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif - SL /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif - light/heavy down attack, should yield good results.
    - Chopping Blow when charged gives +3, which means upper class attacks will MC any /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif attempts. And if you use the Rising Upper, this will result in a free combo.
  12. noodalls

    noodalls Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Okay, more stuff that I copied out. I think I got it all now, some of it is still dodgy, but hopefully the meaning gets across.

    Following the changes in the system.
    The changes you can see and understand at a glance are few, but if you dig away at the finer changes, there is a suprisingly large effect on vs. games. Before going to the guide of individual characters, let's do an overall check. The major change is the three types of counters, that you have to be especially careful of.

    It was originally thought that there were two kinds of counters, but in reality there are three, divided into into small medium and large. Less than 15 is small, 16-24 is medium and greater than 25 is a large counter. There are moves (such as Jeffrey's d+K+G and Aoi's b,d/f+P) that will only have a changed effect on large counters so you must be careful. Furthermore, the damage changes depending on the type of coutner.

    Small counter - 1.3x - same as VF4evo with a small yellow hit effect. If the damage of the attack is less than 15 you get this kind of counter.

    Middle coutner - 1.5x - a mid counter with a red effect. The damage is the same as VF4evo at 1.5 times.

    Large counter - 1.6x - It has the same effect as the middle counter, but the screen shakes a little. It is hard to differentiate from the middle counter and so confirming the type of hit is difficult.

    The effect of upper class attacks on opponent's backs.
    The effect of a hit connecting on a backturned opponent has been changed a little. Firstly, when an upper class atack hits the opponent, it won't keep the opponent backturned, instead they will turn around. Also, if they guard they will be considered guarding facing forwards in the final frames of animation. This is an important point to take note of.

    The character most effected by this change is Lion. His d/f+P+G leaves him behind the opponent, but if the opponent guards then d/f+P,P won't connect. It's okay to use it against crouching guarders though.

    The diagonal movement of backturned ARM is now impossible.
    The highly praised evasive properties of backturned ARM in VF4evo times has been subtley changed. No change can be seen to up and down movements, but if diagonally forward is input you won't distance yourself from them. You should reassess the evasive properties and limit the situations in which you use this move.

    Master this on VF-net!
    A complete check of the changeable move properties.
    The move change system of VF4FT looks to be becoming integral. By the move change, the properties of the move are changed completely, and it affects how the move is used. In this article we will confirm the changes to the 2 varieties of moves, and put down some thoughts on which should be used. If you want to use the new move, there will be a time until you can use it smoothly in battles, and it seems like there will be a need for perseverance to get it to those levels. So customise it individually and show it off.

    (Moves as per previous)

    Checking the other changes
    The challenge mode, where you can raise your level depending on your battles, and obtain items. We can't overlook these details, so we'll introduce some of the details we've seen up till now.

    Level 7 Limit.
    The ranking system has 7 groups, and within each 7 levels. The first level is as has been previously shown [00 jishu] and when you reach level two this becomes [00] koukyou. Also, separate from this you can purchase title's like nagamono from the shop (for 100,000G). Might there be other titles still hidden away?

    Challenge mode.
    The point of playing challenge mode is to get coins connected to items. To do this, you want to bring out the highest rank possible. The things that have been understood about rank so far are
    1. If you fail to achieve a challenge, you get a B or C rank.
    2. If you don't win either round , you can't recieve a AAA.
    these two. If you clear a challenge without dropping a round, you'll probably get an AAA.

    The method for changing moves - For reference, we'll introduce the method of changing moves. Choose card information in VF-net, and in character selection you can choose you move. It's limited to one change per day, so you can't change it like "I'll use this move to win this fight." However, if you make two separate accounts you could use both sets of moves. This might become useful in tournament time.
  13. KiwE

    KiwE Well-Known Member

    Imo I definatly can't agree that they are balanced against eachother Myke. You forgot one very important thing in your comparision of the two: Rising Elbow stumbles on YC (seen in recent clips). That's pure gold in so many situations as from stepping punishment to evade / are attacking etc. If I want a combo in FT I'll go with the /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif after my 2p hits. Hell, now with the /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif sabaki I don't even have to do /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/g.gif if I'm uncertain it will hit even. The fact that the rising elbow is one frame faster and stumbles on YC will also give it garanteed situations to be used in where you get the bad even on normal hit with the upper.

    I have yet to see one singel Brad in FT use the evo rising upper in game btw.

    [ QUOTE ]
    - Chopping Blow when charged gives +3, which means upper class attacks will MC any /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif attempts. And if you use the Rising Upper, this will result in a free combo.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Rising Upper = 16 frames. /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif = 12. 12 + 3 = 15 so the rising upper would be to slow. I think this attack is really intresting aswell but would have to try it out alot to see it. Examples I can think of are; what's the stats if the second hit MC's (so the opponent really fears it)? Is the first hit good stats on block so you can force mixups? If the opponent knows you have this move as your select - can it be evaded easily? It seems like a cool move though to keep up momentum - FT Brad seems like such a complete character now and very unique fightingstyle wise. At this point I'm basicly hoping there's no FT version B that he gets nerfed in soon - this seems to good.


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