Are there any characters you think are too good in vf4 or vf evo?

I've seen a few, but they're few and far between. Played a guy last night taht's an acquaintance - who was fun to play against. I guess since he's the "introductional" character, you're gonna see mostly boring play style out of him.

As for Akira, I've always thought he's enjoyed the best of all worlds. While he has no full crescents, he's got fantastic half-crescents, and while he's hard to master, some of his easiest moves are the most damaging (as stated previously). He does have a lot of throw directions, and the 2nd best reversal set in the game. Also, me being a Shun, I hate the fact taht he can Sober Shun up really quickly.

My constant bitch since VF Ver. A was that Shun had a reall lame throwing game (the worst in the game actually), and potential for high-damage combos leaves a bit to be desired. Yeah, after some drinks you can do some funky stuff, but there's only two moves that allow drinks, and one is escaped all the time. I think when he does his +, he should take a swig AS they're falling down.

 

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Blondie said:

The only thing Jacky's elbow gives him really is one frame faster and -3 on block and you don't have to worry about any special properties afterwards.


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Err... no. A lot of characters have 14f elbows (eg. Kage, Lau, Sarah, etc...), and Jacky's elbow has the worst recovery at -6.

 

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GaijinPunch said:

As for Akira, I've always thought he's enjoyed the best of all worlds. While he has no full crescents, he's got fantastic half-crescents, and while he's hard to master, some of his easiest moves are the most damaging (as stated previously). He does have a lot of throw directions, and the 2nd best reversal set in the game. Also, me being a Shun, I hate the fact taht he can Sober Shun up really quickly.

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Sure Akira has alot of throw directions, but only 2 are very good. You would've had a valid argument about Akira's throwing game in Ver.C, but his throwing game is weaker in Evo. SE throw and PIT don't guarantee anything, and his stumbling trip only guarantees double palm (also toned down). If you're lucky enough to get the single palm, it still takes twice as much work as other characters just for 60 points damage. As far as "fantastic" half-crescents (DFS and SPoD), DFS (IMO) is the only one that can be used on a regular basis. SPoD is way too risky because it's -15 frames.

 

Your fucking right! All this time i was playing with the mind set that it was -3, i feel like a scrub. Anyways it's execution is 14, which leaves me to wonder why elbow is so tough for ppl? At -6 you get more time to do whatever you want to do after a successful MC dodge. I went to 1/60th site and actually read it wrong, can you believe it? hehe i feel a bit like a tard.

 

I think Jeffry is too strong.

Oh wait. Sorry. I read further in the forums and "Apparently Jeffry is just a weak-ass joke".

 

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and his stumbling trip only guarantees double palm (also toned down). If you're lucky enough to get the single palm, it still takes twice as much work as other characters just for 60 points damage

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It's practically guaranteed for most characters. Let's face it...unless you're Pai, Sarah, Goh, or Jeffry (is that the right list? I can't remember exactly) struggling out of the ST is next to impossible.

 

Jeff,

I think it's possible for all characters to struggle the ST- Single Palm, as challenge mode shows us. The fact that most people don't I think is just because they haven't taken the time to learn. Some of the guys here in LA can struggle almost every time.

While it is definately harder for some characters (I think Jacky and Aoi being the hardest), it isn't impossible.

Spotlite

 

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Sure Akira has alot of throw directions, but only 2 are very good. You would've had a valid argument about Akira's throwing game in Ver.C, but his throwing game is weaker in Evo

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Yeah, but (correct me if I'm wrong) nobody's got guaranteed follow ups to those throws anymore. (Lau, Pai, Akira,...am I forgetting anyone?). Besides, and are fantastic next to a wall, so I'm gonna have to call you on that. Also - I've said it before, down is a pretty "queer" direction to escape, and isn't so often. On a simliar note I'm pissed that Lion lost his. +

So, on the presumption that only two directions are "any good" I'd still prefer the extra directions as an option. If your throws are escaped, you're at a disadvantage - and with only two directions (and neutral) yer gonna get escaped a lot. Yeah, he's got forward now, but it's not a very "quick" throw, and it takes off 3DPs, which is painful.

Back on the Jacky - execution is 14 frames? That doesn't sound right, but I woudln't know - I've never studied a frame guide in my life, and likely never will. It just seems to always take priority. In the times when two people are sitting there, not sure what to do (it happens) if the Jacky just sits there, and waits for the slightest bit of movement, then throws out either his or Beat Knuckle, it will pounce the other guys - and that's not really a "punishment" situation. If the follow up to the Beat didn't hurt so bad, I don't think it'd be such a big deal - the sound effects get so repetitive though.

These two moves basically make low punching against Jacky an act of futility in any situation other than 100% guaranteed.

Anyways, all the whining in the world that a character is too strong won't do shit. Whining that your character is too weak apparantly, will.

This has probably been forgotten, but I remember a much more level playing fieldield when Evo was in beta. The two things I recall, and loved where:
Lau's was throw-counterable
Jacky had no

Too many whiners saw that those changes didn't last. Very skilled Jackies were getting their asses kicked left and right - it was pretty funny, b/c nobody knew what to do w/o . Most people at that time didn't know that ground throws were escapable either...a friend of mine found out by accident. But, could imagine the look on my face when Aoi's double-stop didn't crumble after about 5 times.

 

HATERATION

I hate Wolf.

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My constant bitch since VF Ver. A was that Shun had a reall lame throwing game (the worst in the game actually)

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I don't know. It's my impression that Lei's throw game is the weakest, or if not the weakest certainly weaker than Shun's.

Of course it is kinda difficult to evaluate since Shun needs 6 drinks to do his good throw, 3 drinks to do his new throw (which sacs 3) & 10 to do his 270 whereas Lei doesn't have drinks to worry about & can throw , , & + from the jump. Also Lei has that uncanny ability to provoke lingering upon the .

Even so, Shun has that BT'd throw (req. 5 drinks) the handstand throw & the drunken stance throw...I suppose you could consider these not part of his "throw game" since the issue is more avoiding freeze than choosing your two best TE options when it's time to evade your ass outa there. Fair enough.

Before sips, Shun & Lei's throws are comparable damagewise (50 & 50 for Shun, 45/45/55 for Lei)...I don't know numbers for Lei or Shun's grab followups (is Shun even guaranteed that Chowan after his weak throw?) but by the time Shun gets 10 drinks he becomes a freakin full-on menace...(I don't even want to talk about his sabaki autothrow madness!)...I mean, + escapes his 270? Did I read that right? No wonder I can't get out of it.

Finally, Shun avoids the nitaku that usually accompanies escaped grabs when his grab is escaped & can roll out the way when his + is escaped...of course, with his back to the wall an escaped + means Akira can get frisky. It don't matter. Shun rocks dude!

& once again, SCREW WOLF!

 

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As for Akira, I've always thought he's enjoyed the best of all worlds. While he has no full crescents, he's got fantastic half-crescents, and while he's hard to master, some of his easiest moves are the most damaging (as stated previously). He does have a lot of throw directions, and the 2nd best reversal set in the game. Also, me being a Shun, I hate the fact taht he can Sober Shun up really quickly

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i'd have to agree on some notes, i don't get why akira would be a hard person to TE however, he only has a linear path of , or , the one stumble trip again does'nt leave you with much option, all of akira's mainstream throws rely on (even SPoD) and the is in an easy direction with to multi - TE, not like his throwing game is easily mixed up, if a player is good enough he / she can do a quick slide from to and akira has no other option to fall back on.

as for beating down shun's drinking, i think alot of characters are able to do this in EVO ver.B, akira is by no means alone on this.

 

Spotlite,
I'm not sure if you know this... but struggling out ST > Single in challenge mode isn't the same as doing it in real match (timing wise). when you say guys in LA can struggle out of every time you mean in challenge mode? I recommend for anyone who thinks struggling this is easy do a recording and playback and try it there, or have a real person do it you. I can struggle out of challenge 100% of the time, yet I cannot do it playback even once.
be able to struggle in challenge mode means nothing in this case.

 

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Yeah, but (correct me if I'm wrong) nobody's got guaranteed follow ups to those throws anymore. (Lau, Pai, Akira,...am I forgetting anyone?). Besides, and are fantastic next to a wall, so I'm gonna have to call you on that. Also - I've said it before, down is a pretty "queer" direction to escape, and isn't so often. On a simliar note I'm pissed that Lion lost his. +


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Other characters don't have guaranteed followups to those throws (mostly), but they also have a slight edge in the number of throwing options compared to Akira. Of course is a weird direction to escape, but it's not that difficult. BTW, I can't think of a character whose SE or ST throw isn't useful next to a wall.

 

In reference to the guy from New Orleans. What do you mean exactly by his good ++ and his bad ++. His normal df+p+g is better than his ,+p+g mainly due to the disadvantage given to shun when broken. boh of his guarantee atleast 50 just
the throw takes 6 dp to perform. the ++ is nice to have when it comes down to the this throw will kill him situations and you tend to have enough time to get thew 3dp back after the round is over. Im also of the opinion that a shun scared to lose his dp's isnt as effective as it could be.

 

Even though Shun and Lei have weak throwing games, they still can mix them up and thats all that matters. And what i find annoying(good) about their throwing game is that when you escape their basic(most used)throw you can't really follow up with anything! Cuz with Lei Fei you toss him too far away and the same with shun i think, even though i am using Aoi i think most characters dont have the reach to do much.

 

I have faith in that he means that they can struggle out of it during a match, but I see what you're saying.

Spotlite: besides just replying to this post could you also post advice on the timing of the struggle? As Shang mentioned it's a very different feel during gameplay. Thanks.

Gajinpunch: Hi, I'd be lying if I didn't say that I get annoyed when I read posts about my character being cheap or boring. The reason why I don't enjoy this type of arguement is because I see it as a cheesy way to devaluate a persons skill level. "Oh a Jacky player? pfft whatever.. NEXT." - Bullshit. In fact if YOU or anyone else is so 733t then you should be capitalizing against Jacky's weaknesses, period. Thanks for listening.

Oh, and a note on exp players getting beat by less skilled opponents... they're only human.

 

Yeah, sorry about that...I could've made that more clear. I'm alot more consistant getting the chowan after + than +, but this means nothing as my Shun match count is negligable at something like 300 between ver c & evo.

also looks cooler...difficult/impossible to debate this one & also meaningless.

As far as the escapes are concerned, it really depends upon the situation. Middle of the ring? Sure, I'd rather my get escaped than my . But like I said before, back to the wall (or ring edge) Shun's + being escaped screws him as he is rung out(or near thereto) or staggered on the wall, whereas when + is escaped in these situations he at least successfully swaps his ring position, though he still has to deal with that nitaku.

It don't matter though...I should've been more clear to begin with.
IMO Shun's + = GOOD!
Shun's + = BAD!

Oh yeah...Baton Rouge, Louisiana. (were it New Orleans we'd be Koen-Ken 504) /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

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Jerky said:

I have faith in that he means that they can struggle out of it during a match, but I see what you're saying.


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I have faith he means in challenge mode... Because: 1, it's easy as shit to struggle out of it there, and 2 there is the mention of challenge mode in the post.
It's not just the feelings, there's actually timing differences. Go try it for yourself. Struggling out the single palm is NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE for some characters, as Jeff said. If there's a 'secret way' to struggle to make it so easy as everyone's making out it to be. Please enlighten me and tell me I've been living in a hole. If you can't struggling or have tried to struggle out of it yourself in real matches, you need to STFU.
GP: 14 frames = 14 frames... get a grip of it.

 

I don't think this full explaination was needed Shang, I'm pretty sure I understood what you meant. (I've heard you bitch in person /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) Let's just hear what Spotlite has to say ok? /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Actually, when i said people in LA, I was referring to Andy and Mike 90210, and during versus play.

While I've seen mike struggle out about 10-25% with Lion, if Andy's using Pai or Jeffry, he can struggle almost every time, esp. with Pai (I can almost never hit him with Pai, so I just dash and throw). Andy also says he notices that when he's using Jacky and Aoi, it's almost impossible. This is backed-up by the new Complete Guide from softbank, which is version B, as the book says that only Jacky and Aoi cannot struggle out.

That book also says that for Pai, Lau, Goh, Sarah and others struggling out is done "easily" (kaifuku yasui). Since Wolf and Jeffry could do it since version C, I think they can do it as well with some ease (as andy confirms when we play).

I tried Shang's test, and it is much more difficult to struggle out if you've recorded the action at fastest speed, but I think this is probably because the challenge mode Akira is doing the Single Palm at the slower end of the window for buffering the move during the ST.

So, while it would seem impossible for Jacky and Aoi to struggle out at the fastest speed, I think for a lot of characters, it's feasable (I just saw Blonde One struggle out with Goh in one of those new florida clips). The fact that I've seen Mike do it with Lion, even though Lion isn't on any of the "easy to do it" lists makes me think that it's attainable for a good portion of the characters.

Spotlite

 

Thanks for the info spotty, I'll be sure to finish my ST's against Jacky and Aoi from now on. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I find it to be rather difficult to escape with Kage, but perhaps it's possible. Blondie seems to have no trouble escaping it with Goh.