Back in the day.......

When jeffrey was complete

 

I don't know why you posted this to New Starter or in the first place, but please, the only better things Evo Jeff had compared to FS was lvl 2 1K, 2K+G, 3K+G, Bottle Cut, 66P+K!P+G as a high 15f punisher and command Splash Mountain, and most of these moves have been replaced with better alternatives (2K+G for 1K, 1K+G for 3K+G, SM however can never be replaced, rip in peace) Evo Threat was useless because you could always nullify all of his options by evading to his stomach, so Jeff had to take risks by delaying Threat to maybe catch a failed evade, but this leaved him open to mashing. R Jeffry was the best with vanilla coming in third place after FS, who is just overall better than in vanilla even though he lost some good tools (Threat P+G WHY?)

 

How is FS Jeff stronger than vanilla Jeff!? lololol

Funny how Jacky took Jeff 3p+k string from VF4 apparently. I wonder how things would look if Jeff had it and Jacky didn't!

 

Evo Jeff was rancid imo - throw punishable elbow on block, knee push throw punishable on block, and if you finished it -14 lol? Ridiculous that jeff can't use any 14f mids without HUGE risk for paltry gain. 3k throw punishable on block, man almost everything was throw punishable or worse for him with most moves safe being really slow ones that would be hard to use anyways. Evo threat stance is no different than FS, FS one ECDC blows it up so you have to delay your move or hope the slap lands, good luck with that. Only time I think stance is viable is on wake up or side-turned, but even then meh. Winning with him was truly an up-hill battle in Evo, not even that strong compared to what he became starting in vanilla.

Also lol at FS jeff being better than vanilla jeff, Yomi has always worshiped FS version for whatever reason.

 

He said FS jeff better then Vanilla.. lmao!!! Im done..

 

lol jacky's is 1p+k not 3. but i wish jeff kept this string. @YOMI the only thing FS jeff has thats good is his TS(Which still can be ECD but you could resets for okizeme) and his guard stun mix up(2P+K i think?). everything else is garbage. But i should've researched R. I heard he was S tier. Was this true?

 

Yomi:

Forgetting 4P+G (with correct stance) > KKP for 110ish damage and Jeffry was an actual heavy weight (avoid lots of damage). Also KKP (instead of high>high) was a really good string. 4K was throw punishable, but lead to CH combo (same with crouch>66PP>2K+G). 466P+K beat highs and even some mids with proper spacing. Also, his ground throw was better (no damage, but 50/50 guess on a ring out/wall hit). Oh, and 37 damage on PK punish (with 201 health in the game)... and 2P+G. Oh, and 6K had a proper hit box. And 6K+G was half-circular... 1P+K was a solid move... and like most characters access to a full circ mid (DMP+K+G, good for oki).

Evo Jeffry was weak, but FS... ha. It's funny how people doubted my reports, "oh it's too early." Now it's finally the consensus... except for Yomi.

 

Lol, you mentioned two things about jeff that suck..

His threat has that built in high slap which isnt hitcheckable and never guaranteed on guard, which means you're gonna be taking a risk every time you use it. Then, even if you hit it ecd is gonna ruin your day, which means you have to delay and open yourself up to another world of hurt.. even from the side the best you get is a three way mixup

Then his so called 'guardbreak' is one of the most retarded design choices in fs. Let's compare it with akira's 6pkg to see how much it sucks.

Akira's gb has 13 ex frames, and guarantees a 60+ combo on pretty much every character when you catch their guard.

Jeff's gb is nearly twice(!!!!) as slow at 24 ex frames, which is similar to a lot of other chars, sure, but then let's see what you get for taking a gamble with this move that leaves you open to abare in pretty much every form and is evadable in every direction. Oh yeah, you get absolutely ZERO damage guaranteed! What's worse is that two of his three options are killable by ducking, and can then be punished. I mean, wtf! There's absolutely zero reason to use this over a throw! Completely ridiculous. They should've just given him the threat hitthrow from neutral. Yes, including the grab on hit option.

Sorry, I'm still bitter about FS Jeff

 

After watching months of R Jeff videos.. He was a fucking God. Then when FS dropped and he was stripped down I smh in disbelief because lightweights stood no chance.. I seen it right then and there.. I Mean the Moment I they gave Goh his 9P+K.. Nerf City was only right on the next exit..

 

yea @Kyre Ha it would seem i was incorrect. People say Evo jeff sucks but > FS. At least he still had his main moves. lts like @SDS_Overfiend1 said FS jeff has been stripped down. But he's actually barebones. On another note, Sega has ALWAYS done this in VF. Nearly all characters movelist always gets nerfed/buffed somehow.

Lion had more strings in R those are gone. Jacky's KPK KP2K, SSK(stagger)G gone. Sarah's FL throw.... gone. Akira's 2KKP and 4P+K+G shuffle, throws... gone. What other fighter does this? You dont delete good moves and add others, you keep adding more to make the characters better. That way each character stays balanced. I think the only character who remained the same overall was leifei imho.

 

Jeffry was top is the first verisons of R, but after revisions he moved to mid/mid-high.

Also Evo Threat stance wasn't that bad. Back in the day, before FuckingSucks, Threat stance had different properties, like being able to some attacks with proper spacing, and you could input an attack at anytime.

With FuckingSucks, you have a limited window for inputs, miss it and Jeffry beats his chest and is fucked. Every threat stance before that, not the case. Evo/VF4 threat was very limited, but a 13 kick was something. Evadable? Very, but you don't have to input it right away, you have all the time in the world, which gives you options:

Immediate attack (can be evaded)
Delayed attack (CHs missed timed , or hit that failed evade, or hit a guarding opponent)
Don't even attack at all (to beat sabaki/reversal which you can then block/evade/punish, or to taunt the opponent)

Never before was throwing out Threat stance a threat to the Jeffry using it. Now, you have to make a choice, right away, and they're not even great choices.
----
Also, I forgot another thing that Evo Jeffry had better (rather the whole game): reliable hit boxes. Mids did whiff against crouching attacks (mainly Shun/Lion), but other than that it was very rare. VF5 made things worse in that regard, but on the flipside Jeffry's range was incredible (look at the character models, play around in dojo), was an amazing long ranged whiff punisher if you timed right. In FuckingSucks, they kept the bad hitboxes and reduced his range. I mean, Eileen's elbow goes through the last hit of (closed stance), Akira's + goes under many mids (which is funny, the Akira player made a choice to go with a ducking attack, Jeffry player made the choice to go for a mid... Jeff loses, and is now and heavy disadvantage or being combo-ed), etc.

 

...all good ones?

 

And the bad ones, like the entire Soul Calibur series.

Compare the movelists from 2 to 5... it's depressing.

 

Not DOA, they added more, janlee, kasumi, ayane etc movelist got better and longer.

 

While I really don't care to argue about FS Jeffry for the hundreth time, especially with the extremely pessimistic Sebo and Kamais, I do however care enough to point out outright false information, which apparently is as prevalent as ever.

This 'limited window' you're referring to in FS must be the about 60 frames after the Threat slap becomes active you're 'limited' to do a Threat move. The whole time he's beating his chest and even afterwards when it looks like he's stopped and is in recovery is only that; looks like, when in fact he can do moves from Threat the whole time, so no, he isn't fucked in the sense that you can't do anything and just have to stand there completely helpless and eat whatever the opponent decides to do.

And how is this different from the Threat game in FS? They try to evade/ECD, you use K+G/delay your attack, they try to retaliate immedietly with an attack/2P, you attack immedietly, you think they'll try to sabaki/reversal, you delay/use a move that their sabaki/reversal won't take. We already established that you have all the time in the world in FS as well to input your attack, so much in fact that Kage can do MC 8P+K if he blocked the slap. The only thing you can't do is to block, evade or recover and punish, which only becomes a major problem against Aoi because she can Tenchi 4 out of the 5 attacks you can do from Threat, but every other character must make a guess, as do you. Jeff can do K+G to beat Tenchi clean for 67 damage, but this creates a weak flowchart because K+G is high, meaning that if the Aoi player reads you correctly in that you'll think she'll just Tenchi every time, which is a good assumption due to it beating all but one attack as said, she can just duck and punish you, which is why Threat is the weakest against Aoi, but that's still only 1 character out of 20. Against the other 19 the problem with Threat is that Jeff only has 2 moves which guarantees the slap to hit on NH, 2_3P and P+K, every other move needs a CH, and this means that every time you risk a yolo Threat entry from any other move than these two, you risk a 2P to the dick, and not even risk really because it's pretty much guaranteed every time for the opponent, but this still leaves you with the option of not going into to Threat and baiting the 2P untill you condition your opponent to not 2P. All of this along with the fact that your opposition can just ECD all of your immediate Threat options if the slap was blocked, but when you are "succesfully" in Threat in meaning that the slap hit them, they're in your world because it's a true 3 way guess from there between K+G, P and 6P.

I will agree on that Threat is weaker in FS compared to vanilla due to him losing options, like vanilla Threat K and P+G (again, WHY?) and that you just have to do the Threat slap every time and it takes a long time that you can exist the stance. I wrote in some other thread about that I wish they would have gave him two Threat stances; one is the old one where he doesn't slap, call this Defensive Threat, and the other one the current one, call this Offensive Threat, but alas Sega hates Jeff so you get what you did. But no way in hell is current Threat as shitty as you say like I've argued against many times and once more. Yes, he has to guess a lot most of the time, but what character doesn't? No character in the game has a stance that's brain dead in that every time you do it you can only win and the opponent can only lose, and Threat always has an counter option for every option your opponent can make, which means the guess always goes two ways, which is not something you can say about every stance in the game, Side Slide Shuffle for example.

By "many mids" you must mean 6P, 3K+G, Threat K and 4K, a whole four mids from his arsenal of +35 that will always whiff against Akira's 3P+K mid animation, in addition to 3K, 46P+K and P+K that have a moderate chance of whiffing at the final startup frames of 3P+K, but never mind mids like 2K, 6K, 1K+G, [4P]K, 41236P+K, 33P, 2_3P, 2P+K, 6P+K, Threat PP and 3P+K that will hit reliably for 50% damage in the best case scenario, and we are talking about a 25 frame move so hitting it randomly with a 2K for example isn't impossible. I bolded the most importat ones there so you can see that even mids with "reduced hitboxes" like you say still hit AK 3P+K, and that's pretty funny if the hitboxes of those moves were really nerfed, or is this just another case of "I dun thunk so"?

You can all carry on now reminiscing how Jeff "used to be good" back in the day when in fact probably nobody in this thread ever even played R Jeffry who was just fucking sick, but then again that game also had a Jean infinite and Taka-Arashi was the worst ranked character.

 

DOA?

Revising/removing/replacing old moves is par for the course for any credible fighting game and nothing to get upset about. You brought up Jacky's KPK and KP2K which are perfect examples of moves that ended up having very limited use as well as outdated animation, hence why Sega at least tried to do something different with it. Just adding and adding moves without revising existing ones would just be stupid.

And does anyone still get mad about moves going through mids in 2014? This is like everything FGs are about now. It's stupid, but I don't even shake my head anymore.

 

I still do. I mean it doesn't surprise me but it is still shitty.

 

You still have to commit much earlier to an attack with FS Threat, the ability to perform one as long as you were in threat animation is the one of the main strengths of pre-FS.

Also, again, Taka was beefed up in later revisions of R, very much so.

That would explain why Evo/FT/SC2 are my favorites, character I play have reliable hitboxes.