Back stagger musings and some combos...

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Nutlog, Mar 18, 2002.

  1. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    Lately I've been working with back stagger combos, seeing how much damage some characters can get out of them. Was wondering if anyone else has come up with some interesting combos. I assume everyone has probably seen or heard of the Jacky combo that does 70% of the bar, but I'll include it here anyway.

    There are two types of back stagger. I'm not sure what induces one over the other yet, but for now I'll just denote both of them here. I wanna say that Back stagger 1 comes from a mC hit, while Back stagger 2 comes from a MC hit or the opponent was crouching, but I'm not sure.

    Back stagger 1: Opponent falls to their knees, clutching their back, but stays fairly close to you. This back stagger is cannot be struggled to reduce the vulnerability. (Also known as a Back Crumble - Myke)

    Back stagger 2: Opponent goes stumbling away from you a fair distance, looking like they're about to fall on their face. This back stagger can be struggled out of and is completely vulnerable until the opponent fully turns around. Opponent cannot be hit with high attacks until they stop stumbling and straighten up.

    All of the combos listed are from a Back stagger 2, unless otherwise noted, and the first move in each combo is what causes the back stagger:

    Jacky: TT P+K, f,f+K, f+K, f+P,P, f,f+K (136 damage) (68%)
    Only works with back stagger 1.
    Blind Beat, big boot, knee, elbow-backfist, big boot

    Akira: FC,f+P, SPoD (b,f,f+P+K if they hit the wall from the SPoD) (110 damage, up to 142 with the BC) (55%,71%)
    Crouching single palm, SPoD, bodycheck for a ground hit

    Pai: d/f+K, FC,f+P, P,P,P,d+K (89 damage) (45%)
    sidekick, double palm, canned pnches to a sweep

    Lion: d/f+K, FC,f+P, u+K,K (102 damage) (51%)
    sidekick, rising uppercut, double wind kick

    Shun: d/f+K, QCF+P,P, d/f+P,P,K (138 points at max drinks, 110 at 8 drinks) (LW only at 8 drinks, up to Jacky with max drinks) (69%, 55%)
    sidekick, chouwan-backfist, uppercut-thrust punch-toe kick


    One interesting note with Pai. If you manage to land her guess palm in the back as a MC, it forces the opponent into a crouch without moving them away from you. Sidekick appears guaranteed from here for a Back stagger 2 and follow up combo. Low back throw is guaranteed in this situation as well. So the above combo with the guess palm on the beginning does a nice 134 damage (67%). /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  2. a_l_e_x

    a_l_e_x Active Member

    One interesting note with Pai. If you manage to land her guess palm in the back as a MC, it forces the opponent into a crouch without moving them away from you.

    What's "guess palm"?
     
  3. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    b,f,f+P+K
     
  4. nycat

    nycat Well-Known Member

    Re: Lion's Back stagger musings and some combos...

    Lion: d/f+K, FC,f+P, u+K,K (102 damage) (51%)
    sidekick, rising uppercut, double wind kick

    Lion's bullet kick (sidekick) flowchart:
    df+K->b,f+P+K->b,f+P+K,P,P
    3K>46P+K ->46P+KPP
    df+K->b,f+P+K>CD>FC_f+P ,etc.
    3K>46P+K>33>2_6P
    df+K->df+P,P->df+P
    3K>3PP>3P
    df+K (MC) -> HCB+P+G->f,F-> u/f+K
    3K->63214+P+G->66->9K
    df+K->b,df+P->f,f+K,K
    3K->43P>66KK
    two set-ups to df+K:
    df+P+K+G->
    and
    d+P->b,b->df+K,etc.
    2P>44
    df+P+K+G->3K->b,f+K+G->d+K
    3P+K+G>3K>46K+G1P>2K
    2P>44>3K
    The above set-up can be mixed w/ b,df+P too.
    The above flowchart is linkable with Special Dodge Attack lead in for variety:
    up+P+K+G->d+P
    8P+K+G>2P>
    d+P->df+K->f,f+P+G
    2P>3K>66P+G
    d+P->df+K->CD_P+G->b,f+K+G
    2P>3K>CD_P+G ->46K+G
    thx <font color=red>Nutlog</font color=red>!
    <a target="_blank" href=http://www.geocities.com/nycat.geo/Lion>http://www.geocities.com/nycat.geo/Lion</a>
     
  5. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    Re: Lion's Back stagger musings and some combos...

    Um, I was searching more for other options from the back stagger, not general flowcharts. Those have been gone over several times.

    Was wondering if others had found other options for exceptional damage or RO from the back staggers.
     
  6. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Nice post Nutlog, precisely the kind of thing I wanted to explore once I got my VF4. I just wanted to clear something up regarding the two back stagger types.

    There really is only one type of back stagger, which you describe as Back Stagger 2, and is caused by a mid-level attack hitting a back turned and crouching opponent. You stated that you can't recover from it, but I'm not sure that's right because you always seem to get the red joystick queue on screen during a back stagger. I also recall seeing a movie where someone was back staggered by Kage's elbow after the f+P+G, and then recovered suprisingly fast to block the rest of the combo.

    Going back to the first Back Stagger you described, where they clutch their back and drop to their knees, this is in fact a Back Crumble, as described in the Blue Book. Only certain moves will cause a Back Crumble though. We know Lei's Arrow Punch and Jacky's [BT] P+K can do it so far. Any others?

    Here's are the two well-known Back Stagger combos for Kage:

    f+P - f+K+G - DP
    f+P - uf+K+G - d+P+KK
     
  7. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    Ah, yup...had those backwards...for the crumble list though, Lei's TT K does it as well (at least against Lion's b,b+K. Interupts and causes the crumple, if you get it out...)
     
  8. ReCharredSigh

    ReCharredSigh Well-Known Member

    wow, now that's a great post. but i'd just like some clarification so i don't get this wrong; suppose i'm using akira. let's say i go for a SE and my opponent is lazy so i follow up with the canned double palm. the opponent QRs, and i sidekick to backstagger them. then i do the single palm, SPoD? did i get that right? cause wouldn't it seem that the opponent will turn around after getting hit by the single palm? or did you mean that the single palm backstaggers the opponent?
     
  9. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    the snglplm back staggers them. You can use it to hit tech rollers as well as the sidekick. So in that situation, you'd SE->dblplm (did they change that from guaranteed. It still seems pretty much guaranteed). They tech roll and you hit em out of the tech roll with a snglplm for a back stagger (does more damage than the sidekick). During their stagger, you get a spod. Net result of the whole situation is you just dealt over 3/4 of their bar in damage. With 3 moves (SE w/ canned follow, snglplm, spod)
     
  10. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Ah, yup...had those backwards

    So, you gonna edit your post and fix it? /versus/images/icons/wink.gif
     
  11. uk-guy

    uk-guy Well-Known Member

    Nuts you are wrong if you are implying that back staggers give guaranteed combo's.

    Both Kage's well known back stagger combos can be blocked if you struggle well enough. Guarding against uf+K+G is quite easy, being able to guard f+K+G require more frantic joystick waggling and button pressing, but it can be done.

    There is a replay on the PS2 cdrom which features a match between Kage and Lau. In the match Kage manages to bck stagger Lau and attempts f+K+G - DP. Lau struggles and manages to block the f+K+G very quickly. Check it out.
     
  12. Blondie

    Blondie Well-Known Member

    Hey guys, while this is sort of off topic, It wasn't worth making a new thread over. And you guys seem to know plenty. With my jacky I've got all the jump over setups I could ever want. But, What if this worked. Knock down opponent, Go BT with Jacky with bb+p, instantly with my back to grounded opponent hop Backwards, making it so that when and if they rising attack they miss and I'm directly behind them. Would this work? And if so wouldn't it be the nastiest shit to finish someone with an on purpose setup like this with the B+K+G all in the back. That hit animation is SO SICK!! There face slams to the ground. Also after hitting someone in the back with a slam move like that. Do you get a gauranteed u+P or are you able to rush in and get a d/f+k? Sorry that this is off topic but just wondering =).
     
  13. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    the ultimate jerky setup's that back turned P+K after hopping over them, leading into a 65% damage combo. But if you're looking for something different, this might work. but if they get up with an attack right away the attack will smack you during the hop, since b,b+P takes a little time.. It's an idea, I dunno if the hop will carry you over or not.

    The b+K+G from behind guarantees a pounce. I have a clip somewhere of P+G, hop, backturned P+K, puntkick, b+K+G, pounce.
     
  14. Blondie

    Blondie Well-Known Member

    Thank you Creed, While I'm pretty aware of Jacky's best moves in certain circumstances, The reason I play jacky mainly is to get sick shit off. This is just something I'm working on. Keeps it entertaining for me =). Thanks for the quick response. You've always responded "FAST AS LIGHTING".........................uhm, sorry guys it just came out!!!! lol
     
  15. chingdude

    chingdude Well-Known Member

    i've seen a couple match videos now where jacky players have attempted back-turned hop ura after connecting with KPK. none have succeeded with any followups though.
     
  16. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    uh...tried, but my time has expired for editing it. Also, the Akira snglplm to the back is a crumble not a back stagger. Wasn't paying close enough attention to it. ;P
     
  17. Blondie

    Blondie Well-Known Member

    The way I see it happening is that the Jacky player must allow himself plenty of time to set it up in advance. You must get the opponent into the air, not only that but you have to anticipate them not teching. Only then you actually start the Jump over or "URA"? terminology hurts me =). Anyway start the Jump over while they are just landing or in the air. =) Can't wait to get this at home to try all of this out.
     
  18. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

    if u jump over while they are landing/floating..... his rising kick will hit or track u. only way is right before they do rising kick u start jumping over.
     
  19. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    I edited your post to correct what can and cannot be struggled out of, as well as mentioning that Back Stagger 1 is also known as a Back Crumble.
     
  20. ReCharredSigh

    ReCharredSigh Well-Known Member

    ahh, thanks for the clarification; good post; keep finding more backstagger combos, i'm really interested in this stuff.
     

Share This Page