Back to Aoi

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TetsuSaruKen said:I think you've misunderstood what you've read a little bit. Which is starting to become a recurring theme.

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Speaking of which, WCM, did you ever own up to misunderstanding + overexaggerating ARE vs ECD on that SCII thread?

Anyways, aoi related, I'm always wondering how folks use her other sabaki aside from +

 

dude.. that means lau's mid double hand combo starter that takes more dmg than lei's + bends the rules!!! Or Jacky's multitude of canned throw on hit recovery animations bends the rules!! And Vanessa's that sabakis AND the canned SPECIAL HIGH that gives advantage on block bends the rules!!!! Damn, the list can go on so every character bend the rules!!!! I just now realized that VF is one chaotic game, I should play my karate champ and SF1 now. Since I can't handle all the rule bending!!

/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
oh and btw....
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Unreversable (aside from Aoi pushing it over) + jump +combo starter.

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Aoi doesn't push 9KG on successful reversal... She only spins around it for NO dmg, but it give Aoi 20+ advantage. Will you think 9KG is even better? Or that Aoi sucks even more??? Or what??? /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

KOD:
Application of those are largely what seperate Minami Akira from the rest of the Akira hordes.

Stider:
Nice pointless post. Notices I said Aoi pushes it over... not punishes it. Thanks. Good job on reading English.



Anyway... enough. Change sucks don't it? How dare they all... how dare they all...

 

Read my post again more carefully, but let me help you anyways. Aoi doesn't PUSH lei's 9KG. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Anyways.. if you didn't understand the point of my post and calls it pointless.. then I don't know what else I need to say about your understanding of the game....

 

Yup... I don't know shit. 6 pages later I'm glad we got to that. Funny how none of you posted a damn thing in the thread until I mentioned Aoi = constantly disadvantaged. Someone else looking in reminded my how this illustrates my theory on why VF is and always will be so small in the states.

Anyway... I'll go back to just lurking. Not like there's information here I can't get other places without the bullshit.

 

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Yup... I don't know shit. 6 pages later I'm glad we got to that. Funny how none of you posted a damn thing in the thread until I mentioned Aoi = constantly disadvantaged.

[/ QUOTE ]I wouldn't go as far as saying "you don't know shit", but if incorrect information is being posted, I'll comment on it. It's as simple as that. No hostility involved.



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Someone else looking in reminded my how this illustrates my theory on why VF is and always will be so small in the states.

[/ QUOTE ]I think VF is small in the states due to the lack of "eye candy" for casual gamers, not because of a message board. This has been discussed before, so I won't waste any more time on it.



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Anyway... I'll go back to just lurking. Not like there's information here I can't get other places without the bullshit.

[/ QUOTE ]I'd like to think that you of all people could handle a little constructive criticism. I'm shocked! /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

Here's a quick summary of the thread for anyone who missed the drama.

WCMaxi: She's in disadvantages after most of her moves on normal hit. That is tough to deal with.
VFDC: WHAT? THEY SAID SHE'S TOP TIER! She makes up for it and has options!
WCMaxi: I never said she didn't. I just don't think she's top tier. Evidence suggests that she clearly isn't.
VFDC: EAT A COCK! STFU NEWB!
WCMaxi: I am outie 5000.

Everyone needs to be less hostile to tiers from people outside of Japan. She is at disadvantage a lot. Its akward and doesn't help her win. Yes, she has options but disadvantage < advantage regardless of good disadvantage options.

I play Aoi and I found all sorts of fun info in this thread even after it turned into a flamewar. But I hadn't previously thought much about what WCMaxi said about the disadvantage situations.

I'm just gonna take the knowledge, recognize the weakness and play better because of it.

 

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WCMaxi said:

Yup... I don't know shit. 6 pages later I'm glad we got to that. Funny how none of you posted a damn thing in the thread until I mentioned Aoi = constantly disadvantaged. Someone else looking in reminded my how this illustrates my theory on why VF is and always will be so small in the states.

Anyway... I'll go back to just lurking. Not like there's information here I can't get other places without the bullshit.

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You know with the exception of me, amost everyone has been nice to you. Everyone has tried to reply with thier knowledge of what they thought was thier impression of right or wrong. Afterall this is a discussion board. I'll admit, I am an asshole to you. But that's because of your bullshit on sc.com. Here's the deal. If we came in there to your beloved mecca known as sc.com and started posting stuff that was inaccurate, would you or any of your veterans take the time to correct us like we have tried for you in a discussion type manner? No. I highly doubt it. You of all people would start trashing the living shit out of us. Go to any forum and it's the same. If I go to tekken and start talking about how some move works and doesn't work and I don't even know the proper frame rates than everyone isn't going to take the time to correct me. No, they would call me a troll and to tell me to go back and do a search. Blah blah. Think about it real carefully. If I were to do that on sc.com how would I have been treated. I rest my case! /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Like Dre said, of all people.. you couldn't handle any form of rebuttle. What will your loyal followers think if they saw this? hahhaha. jk.

 

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WCMaxi said:

Yup... I don't know shit. 6 pages later I'm glad we got to that. Funny how none of you posted a damn thing in the thread until I mentioned Aoi = constantly disadvantaged. Someone else looking in reminded my how this illustrates my theory on why VF is and always will be so small in the states.

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Nah man I don't think anybody's saying that you don't know shit, but you seem to make Aoi look weak when in fact she's not. Your intentions are good, I'm sure alot of ppl have gotten some good info from this thread, including me, but at the same time why on earth would I want to pick a character who's constantly disadvantaged, with weak combos, low tier... Ppl who wanted to play Aoi are probably saying ''ok since she's not really that good (better than Lau, Kage, Akira...) I'll just pick someone else''. When that's totally not true, she can hold her own against anyboddy in the game when played properly. Ppl have been trying to explain that to you but all you want to do is compare her to characters with different gameplay styles.


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WCMaxi said:
Anyway... I'll go back to just lurking. Not like there's information here I can't get other places without the bullshit.

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Man are you sensitive !?


Anyways lets just move on, no need for drama.

 

A fun fact about VF.

Normal hit is balls for frame advantage for most chars! Aoi is not alone! This is the way VF is for the most part. I'd like to point out there is a GUARD button in VF. How often does normal hit actually occur in your matches? Enough to be complaining about it I guess. I mean, normal hit most often occurs when you interrupt an evade or your opponent is asleep. If you find your attacks hitting normal hit often, you need to ask yourself, "why didn't I throw?". Not complain about normal hit frame disadv!

Here are a few examples of other chars "key moves" not giving advantage on normal hit.

Lau:

- dis.s
even
dis.s
dis.s
dis.l
-13
dis.m
dis.m
even
ht!
+ dis.s

Lei Fei:

- dis.m
- dis.s
- dis.m
- even
+ - even
+ - dis.m
+ - dis.m
or+ - dis.m

Jacky:

- dis.l
- dis.m
- dis.l
- dis.m
- dis.m
(side kick) - dis.s
- dis.l
- dis.m
- dis.m
- dis.s
- dis.m
- dis.m
- dis.s
- even
+ - dis.m
+ - dis.l
+ - dis.s

I don't need to list all the chars. You can find this type of information for every char here on VFDC if you take the time to look. If you're looking for a char that has good frame stats on normal hit you should play Akira. Also, a good tip to keep in mind is to use moves that will knock down or throw in situations where you see yourself about to score a sweet normal hit.

You will generally get mocked on any fighting game forum when you come on posting like you know everything and sounding like you know nothing. It's brutal, I know. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif Unfortunately, it's something that's about as unique to VFDC as poor frame stats on normal hit are to Aoi.

 

Hmm, well I just want to emphasize that most of the moves that leave the character at disadvantage on normal hit do so because that move is meant for something else, or has special properties.

Generalizations include
- Non-knockdown low attacks
- Attack that has a subsequent canned string (often delayable or if the string is a combo)
- Attacks that float opponents when standing and don't when crouching
- Special middle against crouching
- Big damage attacks that would crumple on MC

I'm guessing there...there may be others, and some generalizations are more robust than others. Most "standard" high and middle attacks will leave characters on advantage on normal hit; this can still be considered a rule of thumb.

 

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On tiering... actually I said the ranking project should be based on
tournament results.

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Interesting! I've been told before that GAMEST invited top players to play round-robin style, and that wins and losses are then compiled to form rankings. So yeah, I guess it's a kind of tournament, but the players are preselected and all characters are equally represented. That makes more sense to me than basing tiers on tournaments like OH where there is unequal representation.

Is my understanding of the above inaccurate?

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I think people that claim Aoi = "greatest ever
f00 LOLOLOL!!!" are looking too much into theory and not enough into
realistic application.

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What about people who say she sucks because she's always at disadvantage and have no high damage potential?

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1. Because of how you and other so-called experts react to the topic. Heh, odd how many VF people raced over to sc.com when it was talked about.

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Actually the reason I pitched in was because you had grossly misrepresented ARE. I was afraid potential SC players would be turned away from VF by the inaccuracies portrayed in that thread. Similarly, I'm hoping you won't be turned away from Aoi/VF by your own (inaccurate?) beliefs about the game...

Also, I'm not sure how you can comment on how "so-called experts react to the topic" when you don't seem to pay attention to what we so-called experts have discussed in the past.

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3. Ah... I knew this would come. Dude, fuck "qualified". Nobody is
qualified . . . If they can work together, the closest thing to "qualified" is a mass of people all talking about it for the right reason . . . It's about dialog and hopefully productive dialog. So much has been learned from our's.

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On a basic level, I don't think the average US VF player knows enough to make intelligent comments on relative character balance (though many probably know quite a bit about their own characters). This is not a knock on US players, but a reflection on the lack of knowledge and competition here. I assume you can read Japanese, so you should know what I mean. I don't know how to read Japanese, and the disparity is obvious even to me.

Any discussion around tiers will revolve less than a dozen key people, so-called experts that can barely hold a candle to Japan's top tier of players. Yes, there'll be lots of learning, but most of the information flow will be a one-way street.

The coolest thing about VF is that there is little agreement over what types of properties are more valuable than others. Is it continuous offense in strings? Then Lau and Jacky are strong. Is it long-range, safe poking? Then Pai and Lion are strong. Or maybe it's in the throwing game? Then Wolf, Kage, and Goh are strong. Etc.

It's impossible to say which type of strength is better than others, because that would depend on the player.

One interesting thing to think about is that, maybe what we see in the heavy representation of Akira, Lau, and Kage is a reflection of the most popular types of style. Maybe Japanese players like balanced, easy-to-use characters. This theory doesn't assume one style is stronger than another...which is why a player that likes Wolf's "big risk, big reward" type of mindset can still beat safe Jackys any day.

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Those rules being it's time honored Paper, Rocks, Scissors
which is of course the foundation for all fighting games. Some adher to
this strictly, VF SF3:S is an example. And some very loosely, MvC2 or
SCII is an example. Traditionally, I've noticed strict adhering games
are popular in Japan while loose is popular in the states. Both games I
listed fit that perfectly too. US SCII is much bigger than Japanese etc.

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This is just semantics, but I tend to think of "rules" as things like, "Step out of the ring, and you lose a round." What you seem to be describing is the idea of a game system. As for the P/R/S thing, keep in mind that in VF4 it's not just one kind of P/R/S...there are many P/R/S guessing games that overlap with each other.

I tried to explain this in that SC.com thread from before...but VF is a game where you have rocks-papers-scissors, elephant-man-ant, and so on, where rocks will beat ants, man will beat paper, etc. It's wonderfully complex, but all purposely designed!

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Lei's 9G+K being double kick + lifter is bend on the system. His 3_9P+K
series is a bend on the system. His Dokuritsu Shiki stance is a bend in
the system. I.E. They don't exactly play P/R/S . . . Aoi too isn't exactly a big fan of P/R/S. The obvious example is 2G+K. 2G+K[G+P+K]24G+P~P... damn her! The system says - Blocked L = punish. Aoi says - fuck that, no punish, no throw

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I totally disagree with the above...you're trying to extrapolate something that's not there. Lei's + doesn't cover all the variables--in a nitaku situation that has + as a variable, the defender has dodging as the counter-option. Further, in terms of risk-reward, it's a fair move. Same thing with all the other examples you listed.

A theoretical move that wouldn't play P/R/S would be something that's fully circular, 11-frames, and at least neutral on block. With a move like that, there's no guessing game (risk) involved--players should use the move whenever possible--that's a system-bending rule. There is no move like that...everything can be beaten, and for the most part most of the moves in VF have a consistent and predictable risk-reward ratio.

 

"Standard"? Like elbow or mid kick? Which result in even or disadvantage frames for every char all around the board except Akira's dashing elbow?

Yes, most high attacks such as P tend to give +. =P

Of course there are some "key moves" that give advantage on normal hit, but these attacks are more rare.

 

I would have to say as an average US VF player that VF tiers should be based on the player, example in which I state the obvious: Akira and Goh are lower-tier for button mashers. Sarah is lower-tier for turtles. Wolf/Kage are lower-tier for people with d-pads.

It is obvious that not all characters are equal when it comes to the individual's style. Therefore, tournament results mean jack squat diddly. So we should have multiple tiers based on style. /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif



In short...... screw the single tier system! And long live Virtua Fighter!

 

To AviH20:

Did you guys really read what everyone has said and understand what people are saying? No one says she is top tier or whatever since it's obvious by now that most everyone here doesn't care or talk about tiers.

The reason why people DON'T see Aoi's dis advantage as a weakness is because her character is DESIGNED to be that way. Think about this, YY stance and reversals, and sabakis are a major component of Aoi. Scoring these types of moves is what Aoi is about. So what are the essential ingredient to use these moves??? That is "The Enemy Must Attack!!!" That's right, if you are playing as Aoi, you WANT the opponent to attack you.

Here is the part you guys are missing. If Aoi does a hit, and it gives her advantage, who in their right minds would try and attack back??? If you are playing soul calibur, let say you got hit and you are at -5, would you risk attacking back? Of course not. Here is why Aoi's attack leaves her at small disadvantages. Because the opponent is encouraged to attack to take advantage of that. The real result of this, however, is that they are doing exactly what Aoi wants them to do!! Aoi doesn't have much combo launchers as you all pointed out, but she has very advantageous CANNED followup from almost all of her inashis and sabakis. No one is saying that she's strong just cause she has options. Everyone has options. Aoi is simply made to take advantage of disadvantaged situations. Whatever, I guess if people can't see that's how Aoi is supposed to be used, then Aoi will suck for them anyways. So I guess it's true that that is Aoi's weakness. I can say for sure that anyone who played kofu at evo must have at inashis and reversals much much more than they wanted to, and the only reason that happened, is that those people tried to attack Aoi when they THOUGHT they had advantage. They did if you go by frames, they didn't if you go by gameplay.

Tell me this, if the opponent didn't attack somewhat predictably, as Aoi's movelist promotes, how will you use her most damaging moves? Her inashis, reversals, and sabakis? I guess then you would really need ESP.........

/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

p.s. This is all basically what everyone's been saying all along, just reiterated once more. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

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JRock said:
I would have to say as an average US VF player that VF tiers should be based on the player, example in which I state the obvious: Akira and Goh are lower-tier for button mashers.

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Since when did button mashers count !?

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JRock said:
Sarah is lower-tier for turtles. Wolf/Kage are lower-tier for people with d-pads.

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Go figure.

 

Finally someone said it...

 

Look

First of all WCmaxi, you know you are a name in the Fighting game circles. Anytime someone talks about good SC players, your name is the first to come up. So to have you playing VF is a joy. It will be great to the community, but arguing with people who have been playing the game for a long time, well it just looks poorly on you.

You have to try and get away from the namco tier thing. yes VF characters can be thrown into tiers but the game is very balanced and the characters dont have that much of a diffrence as far as who is stronger or weaker. Every character has pros and cons. Every character is strong and weak. Jacky doesnt have a lot a throws, but a lot of his moves are mid and fast. Jeffrey has a lot throw counterable moves but his risk reward damage is insane. things like that, for everything good about a character in VF. They all have a negative to balance it out.

So before you go viewing VF with Namco eyes, please realize that the game isnt like anything out there, and thats the reason a lot of people dont like it. If it was as black and white as tekken then VF would be the most popular 3d fighter.

 

ONISTOMPA: When I said I stated the obvious there is no need to come and quote me and state how obvious I am and be a smartass about it.