Back Turned Usage

I've been having trouble getting the full mileage out of Kage's back turned stuff. He has a robust set of options from BT, but I find myself panicking and relying too much on just , , to beat out jabs. So:

1) How do you guys like to set up BT?
-I tend to use because of its defensive qualities. Or just because it's so quick (14frames).

2) How do you effectively use the slower BT moves such as ?
-I like since you can get a follow up combo on hit, but I usually just get blocked and punished for using this move.

Any and all advice will be appreciated!

 

Easiest way to set up backturned is to end a combo with 2P+KK imo. Then you are backturned and opponent is in oki. Thats pretty much the only situation where I try to make use of the full range of Kage's backturned stuff. The BT catchthrow for example is easy to get through if opponent is going to tech and try evade.

Sometimes I use 4K, but if opponent is on their feet, I dont try to do much other than BT 2K or BT P+K~P+K+G into Shippu.

But I don't main Kage so take what I say with a grain of salt..

 

My Kage is just a fashion model, but I've used 4K too, by itself and 4K_ to BT P+K fishing. Observing the hit is crucial as always. KG has more active frames and comboes, but risky as said. 7K is great but buffering required.

PP4P is OK too, I think at least crouch hit/CH setups for 7K for fun pressure. Gonna check some frames today, brb...

EDiT: 7K is the sauce since it gives lot of +frames on block but I bet is bad when evaded. I still had lotsa pain from Lezardo etc Kage pressure and should learn more counter measures...

 

The backturned 7K is also extremely slow at 26 frames. Thats why I dont even attempt to use it outside okizeme situations myself.

 

Best ways into backturned are:

2P+KK/3K+G combo ender
4K (can use on oki to help with slow startup. Mix up different combos of 4K/4KK/4KKK to stop their immediate response if guarded)
PP4P
44P (good from range)
44k (good from range)
44K+G (only +2 on NH so dont be greedy)
66K~G (oki helps with slow startup or mixup not cancelling to keep them honest)
SH 2K
SH K+G (if this hits you actually have nice positioning for the backturned P+K+G and can setup some sideturned shenanigans afterwards)

BT is most powerful from oki since they often cant risk rising kicks due to 7K and you have combo starters from low and mid moves as well as evade beating options.

Using BT when not from oki requires hit checking and as a general rule if you got guarded you either want to turn around with G or use something small like BT 2P to turn around relatively safely. If you connect with your BT entry move then you can apply the scarier options (BT 2K/BT K+G without the risk of getting launched out of it. A good practice move is 4K into jumonji and go for the BT JU P+K if you scored a counter hit or something like BT JU P/BT JU 2P if you didnt.

BT P+K that you mentioned is used as a lower risk/lower reward version of BT K+G. You are safe on guard and it has the followup kick to scare them out of a quick response. This can allow you to use the window to get into shippujin for more ninja shenanigans. A funny sequence is BT P+K P+K+G > SH 2K/SHK+G > BT P+K P+K+G > SH 2K/SHK+G > BT P+K P+K+G > SH 2K/SHK+G etc...

As a general note for this game, and especially with Kage, if you have your opponent fearing a certain move (BT 2K from +4 or greater for example) then you can often count on them not attacking back which gives you a window to use a move that "should" otherwise be too slow

 

Thanks for the great responses guys. Looks like I got some more training to do.

 

For the "slower" BT moves, is a good setup, they will often keep guarding in fear of the final kick from , you need to condition them to fear it though. Also is a good one with the same idea, make them fear the final kick . Many players want to evade the final kick of 4kkk, so BT catches alot. And after hits, BT will beat out any attack they try. Once they know this, switch up to BT to catch them low guarding.

 

I fail to see why people would want to try and evade a -20 move.

 

evade is an option to avoid , > and > +

In regards to using to set up BT, it's not a great idea to use too often since it is -16 on guard and high, meaning they can simply after the mid punch to avoid all mixups.

imo it's a better idea to hit-check and just defend/turn around if guarded. I only use the kick followup sparingly to prevent certain retaliations.

 

I would consider it a minor mixup of whether to do just 4K or 4KK, and then continue with any of the other backturned options. 4KKK is very risky as Yomi pointed out.

 

I agree, manji. But it works once in a while once the opponent is used to being able to throw whatever they want after .

 

Many high level players(Stl Tim, SDS Overfiend, CHief Flash) Have all fallen for this setup more than a couple times. The reason is that the the third kick is too tempting to not try to evade(for some) becuase of the guaranteed punish afterward. For whatever reason this string was committed to memry early on by some, and they just cant help wanting to evade the third.
P.S. Its true that the whole string is a bit of a mixup, I stop after the first all the time into JU or just BT mixup, but if that second one comes out, look for the evade, if they try attacking out or ducking, (prepared for the throw) throw the third kick, it is delayable. I think 4kxx is a crazy good setup, with the main downside being the 19 frames you need to start it.

 

Elite, I agree with pp4pk , I only use it to condition against mid/high retaliation from pp4p( I thought I wrote that). Evade will take care of low ataack. Beware of characters with quick full circ lows. I dont guard enough from blocked pp4p, I abare or other defensive option. I should really take your advice on that though, and only abare after hit, not guard.