Banging the Gong of War

Here's a nice quote. Good as a counterpoint to those who scorn anyone trying to draw a parallel between contemporary right-wing politicians and those of the past.


"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some
poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the
best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in
one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war:
neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in
Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the
leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is
always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it
is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament,
or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people
can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That
is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the
same in any country."


-Hermann Goering, Nazi Reichsmarshall and Luftwaffe-Chief,
before being sentenced to death at the Nuremburg trials >>

 

That's a nice quote you've found. I'm amazed at the depth of the anti-war sentiments around the world, and especially here in America. I don't believe that most Americans favor this war; not by a long shot.

Speaking of which, i have some new articles about War Without End, Amen (tm) on my website. Everyone should check 'em out and pass it along (shameless plug). The only good thing to come of this is that I have a steady supply of material to write about.

 

"Old men declair war, but it is the young who must fight and die." - I can't remember the guys name, but it was the head of the RAF during WWII.

 

Under what circumstances is a war justified?? I would love to hear all of the different opinions that are out there!!!

 

War is justified when the existience of life is threatend and the only means for survival is to fight back. WWII was a war that needed to be fought. While the american revolution was not.

 

I think dissent is considered unpatriotic, which is a shame because that's what America used to be all about.

Unfortunately "Dubya" doesn't respect the Constitution, the will of the people or the UN.

You think people would start worrying more when their leadership is justifying an unprovoked war. But I think most American's are docile as sheep. Save for the protesters that is.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Jedi said:
WWII was a war that needed to be fought. While the american revolution was not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what you said, except I truly think the american revolution, was a necessary event because of the way of life that it brang to not only me as an american but also changed Europe. It was a tool that stopped a lot of monarchy's tyranny, and brought many people more freedom than they could imagine.

 

Make no mistake, this "President"s invasion of Iraq is not the American Revolution or WWII. This has nothing whatsoever to do with "liberation" or "national security" or making the world safe from terrorism. To quote Kang and Kodos, this is a mission of conquest. It is a war for oil and treasure, and the fundamentalist politics of the American Right.

Good heavens, this is going to be a disaster. Between the invasion, the aftermath, and North Korea, something is going to go horribly, horribly wrong.

Not that I'm feeling alarmist or anything.

 

Do you feel that Saddam Hussein poses any threat whatsoever to World Security??? and for that matter the North Koreans???

 

This is from my livejournal october 28th, my feelings with regards to Saddam and his capabilities are in there as well:

28th October 2002
10:47pm: And the times, they are a changing
Not too long ago I was talking about mankinds seeming inability to learn from its mistakes.

Sadly plenty of proof of that has been doing the rounds lately.

Lets just take a look at some of the more recent events that catched my attention.

The attacks by Jewish settlers against Palestinian farmers and all people who aid them in the long overdeu harvest of olives to the latest suicide bombing OUTSIDE the green line zone that killed 4 people.



________________________________

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=%20224145&subContrassID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=224145

This ongoing persecution - which has been accompanied by gunfire directed at the farmers and their homes, the torching of the Yanoun village generator and the contamination of the well in the area - has already caused most of the village residents to abandon their homes. The village, which was once home to 150 families, now has less than 10 families living there.

Dozens of complaints dating as far back as 1998 and concerning the vandalization of property have been filed by the village residents with the Israel Police, but these have gone no further than a confirmation of their receipt. Till now, no one has stood trial and no indictments have been served against the persecutors.

The villages of Yanoun and Akrabeh are, in fact, under Israeli control. Nevertheless, it turns out that the Israel Defense Forces and the police are in no hurry to uphold the law. Instead, representatives of the security forces are trying to forge "understandings" and "agreements" between the settlers and the villagers, as if they were mediators and not law enforcement authorities.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1035723566180

"Do you want to be dead?" a settler asked James Delaplain, 74, of Wisconsin, as he hit him in the face with a rifle butt Sunday afternoon. Delaplain was one of eight olive harvesters injured Sunday afternoon outside the village of Khirbat Yanun.

Israel Police spokesman Gil Kleiman confirmed settlers had attacked olive harvesters, injuring four foreigners, two Israelis, and two Palestinians. He added that he did not know any specific details about the attack.

He said the incident occurred shortly after Sunday's suicide attack in Ariel, in which three people were killed, including a soldier from the settlement of Itamar. Israel Radio reported that according to witnesses on the scene, the settlers were from Itamar.

____________________________



There is more that is sadly underreported tough.

France recently came back to its decision to call products from outside of the green line Produce of Palestine.

The Produce of Palestine label angered Israel, not becouse of the mention of Palestine but for the implications it brings with it.

Ill explain why.

Israeli products like a lot of other countries that have good economic relations with the European Union are not taxed as they enter the EU.

France´s reasoning was that the products coming in from outside the greenline are not recognised as Israeli regions and thus should not be subject to that tax exemption.

An admirable stand considering the fact that the so called settlers recently have seriously stepped up theyre provocations against the native palestine´s and have been reported to even steal theyre crops and sell em of as theyre own, that despite often having already seized the best plots of land from theyre rightfull owners.

Sadly France has for now halted the taxation of goods harvested or produced by Israelis in the occupied territories.



While all that was happening Israel developed a national crisis that could result in early elections since the labor party wants to use funds set aside for the settlements(yup illegal Jewish settlements in the ocupied territories get a lot of government aid and cost a truckload of money to protect)to help out the poorest people inside Israel itself and for a few social programs wich now with the worsening economy and increased millitary spending have had theyre allocations seriously slashed.



In Moscow we had more fallout from another war no one cares about.

Chechen terrorists seized a theater and the dramatic ending has been one of the worst yet in Russian history.

It reminded me of another hostage situation by Chechens a few years ago, one where close to 100 hostages died, those hostages died by bullets, bullets fired by Russian troops.

Reports of that hostage situation speak of Chechens helping hostages escape Russian bullets when the Russian army came barging in.

This one however was clearly different, I fully believe this time the terrorists wanted to kill most people who were taken hostage.

The pictures of young woman with bomb belts around theyre waste killed by single bulletshots to theyre temples while past out from the gas speaks volumes of what went on theyre.

The situation also speaks volumes for the desperation the regular Chechens are facing in everyday life.

This time the death toll was higher then the last high profile hostage situation, and again all but 2 from the actions of the Russian elite troops.

Russian authorities have a lot of explaining to do, sadly they refuse to do so, even goin as far as refusing to tell doctors treating the survivors what sort of gas they have used, thus putting even more lives at risk.



And in the US we had the sniper case wich finnaly came to an end.

The following is from thorn in side of Republicans AND Democrats everywhere, Michael Moore whose newest movie Bowling for Columbine recently premiered and wich is an incredibly strong and tought provoking dark(almost morbid)comedy documentary about Americans love for firearms.

Yesterday, Larry Bennet, a 16-year old, was shot in the head after he was involved in a minor traffic accident. You probably didn't hear about it because, well, how could he be dead if he wasn't shot by The Sniper?

Yesterday, an unidentified woman was shot to death in her car in Fenton, MI. You probably didn't hear about it because she had the misfortune of not being shot by The Sniper.

Two nights ago, Charles D. Bennett, 48, an apartment security guard, was shot to death after confronting two teenagers in his parking lot in Memphis, TN. You probably didn't hear about it because the sniper was too busy sleeping in his car that night, and thus, poor Charles was not shot by The Sniper.

Yes, The Sniper has apparently been caught, so we can go back now to NOT reporting the DOZENS of gun deaths that occur every day, the ones that just aren't newsworthy because they happen in all those old boring ways -- unlike the ways of The Sniper, who was interesting and creative and exciting and scary! He played so much better on the news.

________________________________



Tumultous times, tumultous times indeed.

And sadly it doesnt look like it will get better anny time soon.

The ongoing troubles in the middle east wont be solved annytime soon, the 500.000 Chechens who survived 200 year of Soviet oppresion will remain to live life under a horrible siege, North Korea admitting to developing nuclear weapons (IMO this is just for bargaining reasons).

Then there is Saddam who in less then 6 weeks weeks went from Nuclear capabilities in 7 years (Benjamin Ben Elizier, defense minister Israel) to 2 to 3 years ( Tony Blair, Prime minister UK) to within a year ( George nucular Bush Jr, president of the US of A) and in one week went from He poses no threat to us and has no weapons that can harm us (Ben Elizier again) to he has weapons of mass destruction and poses an immediate threat to the entire free world(Bush again).

Bush and Blair of course have been claiming they have proof of all of theyre allegations for 6 months now, so why they havent shared it with a single one of theyre allies is kind of a mistery to me.

After all if ya have the proof and seek International support and especially support from UN Veto holders why not share it with the decision makers in those countries.

I understand that to protect sources inside Iraq making certain info public would put those sources at risk but surely iff you seek the aid of the president of France you could share the info with him right?



Personnaly I feel Saddam has terrorised his people and the region for far too long, none of his neighbouring countries has ever liked the guy EVER, sadly he was the wests in general and the US in particulars preffered partner in the region in the 80s.

On a BBC documentary recently I saw footage from the 80s with Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam and calling him a great friend and close ally of the US.

That support allowed him to tighten his grip as a dictator and provided him with foreign aid to start his weapons programs.

Its a grave historical error and one that should have been taken care of long ago but sadly has not, meanwhile of course the needles suffering of the majority of the Iraqi people continues.



At times it seems like we have a verry tumultous time ahead of us, as always however I fear for the worst and hope for the best.

There is a lot more I have on my mind, wich i could mention or talk about.

This has however once again become longer then I intended so ill end it here.


___________________________________________
The more things change the more they stay the same

 

Oooh! Great stuff!

Fortunately, I still hold out hope that this insane march to war is slowing. There are more and more protests, with overwhelming public opposition around the world. Given that most politicians like to keep their jobs, it is only a matter of time before they finally come around.

Also, it looks likely that the UN war resolution is not going to pass. The open defiance of France, Germany, and Russia is only the latest event in a long unravelling of Bush's bully diplomacy. The revelations this week of US "dirty tricks" and spying on the undecided Security Council votes have swept the globe. Everywhere, of course, except in America. Our media pundits are too busy openly sneering at all of us asking "simple and naive" questions, like "what exactly did Iraq do to us?"

Then there the great irony of Turkey. Actually, that's a whole basket of ironies. A Middle East democracy, saying No to the "President" who wants to install a military man in Baghdad. And let no one ever forget how the White House was willing to sell out the Kurds in order to win the precious northern front.

This is the worst diplomatic disaster the world stage has seen in ages. The war resolution may end up being tabled, after all.

Oh, and, just for the record, I do not believe Saddam Hussein presents a direct or emerging threat to any of his neighbors, and especially the US. This whole thing is a damn scam.

 

Nah man, people are being scared into submission.
Look at WW2, look at Israel and now the US.
When people are scared they choose for simplistic solutions often offered by those who are responsible.
Politicians know that, thats why they incite fear into the people, thats why the Bush administration is saying WMD/Al Queda/Iraq as often as possible.
You dont have to provide proof to someone who fears for his/her life, keep repeating the same lie and people will buy it.
Hitler blamed the Jews, Sharon who was directly responsible for the current intifada puts the onus completely at Arafat while the situation in Israel has never been as bad as since he took office, Bush and his cabinet make links that do not exist and show CG and a vial with white stuff to scare people into submission.
Its a sick game.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Fishie said:

Nah man, people are being scared into submission.
Look at WW2, look at Israel and now the US.
When people are scared they choose for simplistic solutions often offered by those who are responsible.
Politicians know that, thats why they incite fear into the people, thats why the Bush administration is saying WMD/Al Queda/Iraq as often as possible.
You dont have to provide proof to someone who fears for his/her life, keep repeating the same lie and people will buy it.
Hitler blamed the Jews, Sharon who was directly responsible for the current intifada puts the onus completely at Arafat while the situation in Israel has never been as bad as since he took office, Bush and his cabinet make links that do not exist and show CG and a vial with white stuff to scare people into submission.
Its a sick game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

UnCauzi
http://www.totallycracked.com

 

[ QUOTE ]
Fishie said:
Sharon who was directly responsible for the current intifada puts the onus completely at Arafat while the situation in Israel has never been as bad as since he took officeIts a sick game.

[/ QUOTE ]
That, I am sorry, is almost an out-right lie.
Arafat, and the arab nations are mostly for the infitada. Hell, Israel offered Arafat control of east Jerusalem and it was Arafat that turned it down.
Israel, for a long time, has been making offers upon offers, yet the Palestinian people continue to use terror as a vehicle for their movement...maybe they would garner more sympathy through more peacefull means of protest.

 

While I would agree that fear is a prime motivator of the Bushies in pressing for war, this tactic only has real traction here in America. We have been fed a steady diet of fear and loathing for so very long, that appealing to the bogyeman is practically a reflex.

The rest of the world, however, is much more skeptical, and less likely to be scared by increasingly absurd "what if" scenarios. It also helps that the press in Europe is much more skeptical than the joyously pro-war coverage in the US.

I will hold out hope that the UN resolution will fail, and fail badly. British offers of a "compromise" resolution and China's promise to vote No are the latest developments.

Chances are, though, that "President" Bush will start War Without End, Amen within the next week. But let's hope he can be stopped.

Remember, everyone out there do their part!

 

From here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030307/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_18

"Asked how his faith was guiding him through these deliberations, Bush said: "I pray daily, I pray for guidance and wisdom and strength." He added that if he decides to send troops into war, "I would pray for their safety and I would pray for the safety of innocent Iraqi lives as well."

What the hell sort of diety is this crackpot worshipping that gives him instructions to hurt millions of people both in and out of the country? Not the same one I know and love, obviously. And prayer or not, many innocent people in Iraq are being and will be killed.

The more I read and the more time I spend here, the more I realize what a self-centered bully of a nation the US is. Sometimes, I must say, I'm ashamed to be an American. Sad, but true. I wish it wasn't like that.

 

Another annoying thing to wonder about is why the US wants to do it now rather than a LONG time ago?? One may think that at that time the US may have had more benefits than losses by leaving Saddam be in power. And now the US may have found a new interest for it to go through a war.... Does it have anything to do with a future 'clash' of some sort with Iran for example? What's the next step, if any, after Iraq?

 

So, What do we do as a nation, obviously, no one favors any type of action, and danielthomas does not think that Saddam Hussein is even a threat, so whats the solution,
Granted, no one arguably desires war(I say arguably because I know many of you will tell me that Bush does) but what do we do, Leave Iraq be? try more diplomatic means, if any exist, send in more inspectors, take out inspectors? I truly believe Saddam is a threat, maybe not to the U.S., but to his people and most definetly to the iraqi kurds and others in the Middle east? it seems like a no win situation to me, and maybe thats what it is.

and i just have to say, don't openly mock someone because they say they pray, i really don't think you can judge someones sincerity, if he prays, thats good because I believe its to the same god that I pray to or any prays too. hopefully that god can help us and bring peace!

 

I don't have anything at all against religious people, as I am a believer in an ultimate truth myself. But when people claim to be religious and do hypocritical things that go against the very tenets of their faith, I can't help but be peeved. (And America has many of these sorts of people, sadly.)

And Iraq really is not a threat right now - they don't HAVE anything to be a threat with. As opposed to Israel, who may be in the unique position of being a more arrogant country than the States, with an accused war criminal at the helm. I feel sorry for Arafat, he really is a good man, despite what various media portrays. His people, however, are so desparate that they will resort to anything, even what he has tried to prevent, to protect what little they have. Depressing, really.

 

I don't know how you can call Sharon an accused war criminal and in the same breath call Arafat a good man!! He is a known terrorist, with strong ties to groups who are notorious for suicide bombings, if you ask me Sharon and Arafat will both go to extremes to get what they think is "right". For there to be any stability in that region Israel has to do the right thing and not re-elect Sharon, and the palestinians have to get a leader who will help them become a stable nation, both groups have a right to exist and can, if they can get their leaders to change their mentality. or most likely get new leaders!!