Basic guarding and Motion Cut concept further explained.

After play the insane challenge mode in the home version of evo. I have come to a better understanding of guarding attacks in general and the fuzzy guard phenomenon.

At this point, I have to explain first on how blocking works in VF4. As long as is held, you are able to block high and mid attacks. If is held without or , you can be thrown. If is held with or , you block low attacks and avoid throws. Here is a little detail about blocking that will play into what will be said later. Once the blocking animation starts, for example, guarding a side kick, there will be an amout of forced guard animation where any direction input becomes buffered and not executed. So in said example, while the side kick is in contact with your character, holding down will not pull you out of a high guard and let you get hit. Another small detail is that the animation in between the motion of going into crouch and standing up from crouch do NOT play part in deciding which level you are guarding. Which level you are guarding is SOLELY dependent on your input. This is why sometimes you'll run into situations where your character instantly stands up and guard and attack while recovering from a knockdown. Now onto the details.

For anyone that have played the trial challenge mode in the home version of VF4Evo. The very first section put you in a challenge where you have to deal with Akira's Dashing Elbow and Low Back Fist guessing game. (DE and LBF) The first trial is fairly simple, you can play that just by watching Akira closely. This challenge, however, exposes a fundamental blocking concept. In VF4, low attack are generally slower than mid or high attacks. You can exploit this idea with what is said earlier about the concept of guard being dependent of input. In this specific scenario, Akira's DE is faster than his LBF. Once you get a feel for how fast the DE reaches your character, you can easily block both the DE and LBF solely by timing. Here is the explaination behind it. If you are just inputting , you can block the DE, and while you are in the forced guarding animation, holding doesn't cancel the high guarding. So if you always start holding after the the time it takes for the potential DE to make contact, you can still guard against the DE. Since the LBF takes longer to reach you than the DE, holding will always get you a low block against the LBF. So the theory is hold until you see akira coming towards you for the potential DE, once he gets close and just pass the time that it takes for the DE to hit, start holding down. You will always guard both of the attacks this way. Practice this and you'll understand it easily. You might start out holding down too soon and eat the DE, but that's because you haven't gotten a feel for how long it takes for the DE to hit. Keep on practicing until you understand this bit.

Further on in the challenge, you have to deal with the guessing game of throw, DE, or LBF after guarding a jab. Now if you hold down until Akira gets close, you can possibly eat a throw, so now this is where fuzzy guarding becomes a part of the formula. When you guard against Akira's Jab, start to hold to avoid a potential throw, but stand back up in the time that it takes for a throw to execute. Since a throw is much faster than a DE or the LBF, being crouched for that quick moment will make the throw whiff if you've timed it correctly. At this point you have avoided the potential throw after guarding the jab. Now to guard against the potential DE or LBF, it's back to what was explained ealier. So in practice, this is what you have to do to successfully guard against all three potential attacks. It goes like this, hold until you see the jab is being guarded, start holding while the jab is being guarded, let go of to avoid the potential throw, then hold again when you anticipate the potential DE to make contact to block the potential LBF.

The last challenge is where you learn another aspect of fuzzy guarding. While in the animation of crouch dashing, you cannot be high thrown, but the moment that you cancel the crouch dashing by hitting , you instantly become throwable. The premise here is that you must deal with Akira's dblpm, throw, or LBF guessing game at a small disadvantage situation after being hit by Akira's ,. Now this is where timing becomes very very important. Putting all the points of guarding and avoiding throws from earlier explainations together, you can easily beat this challenge. /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I'll now show you how. After , hits, when your character recovers immediately input a forward crouch dash by . Do not at this point input , because if you do, you can instantly be thrown since you were at a disadvantaged situation. Practice this part and don't worry about getting hit if akira does dblpm or lbf, but remember to not input at this point. The important part here is to understand how crouch dashing will avoid throws even at a disadvantaged situation. While you are doing this make sure to also start getting a feel of how long the delay is for Akira to execute his dblpm.

The next step now then, is to avoid the throw AND the dblpm. You now can avoid the throw easily by crouch dashing, and remember that I said to note how long the delay is for the dblpm to come out? That is the exact moment when you start inputting and cancel the crouch dash to go into a high guard. If you input too early, you can be thrown, and if you input too late, you get hit by the dblpm. The key part here is to NOT input when you are crouch dashing until Akira can potentially execute the dblpm. Don't worry about the LBF for now and get used to crouch dashing forward to avoid the throw, and inputing at the right time to guard against the dblpm. When you are able to do this, i'm happy to tell you that you've learned everything you need to know to understand how blocking works in VF4.

"What about the LBF? " you ask. At this point, it's easy to see that holding down after the potential dblpm hits will always guard against the LBF just like the very first challenge. So the whole step now goes like this. Get hit by ,, immediately input , Input and hold when Akira can potentially execute his dblpm, then start holding after the time it takes for the potential dblpm to hit to block the potential LBF. Now you should be able to easily pass this challenge.

Remember the KEY here is TIMING and ANTICIPATION, not reaction.

Once you have understand these concepts, you should first go "woh........" and then be overwhelmed at how systematic and logical the VF4 system is. Good Luck!!!! /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

p.s. If you think what I've said is BS, I'm capping a vid to show exactly how it's done. If you think there are inaccuracies in the way i've explained the blocking system, please point it out and we can revise it to avoid confusion. I believe I have it down right though. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Re: Basica guarding and Fuzzy guarding concept further explained.

Here is a demonstration video I capped showing you how it's done. Notice that I end up crouching when I avoid a throw. That's to anticipate the LBF, but the crouching doesn't begin immediately after avoiding the throw so as to block the potential dblpm.
http://web.utk.edu/~dzau/VF/Evo/challenge_demo.wmv

In the vid the character resets position cause the wall screws up the recovery as you can see earlier. The character reset is done by hitting R3 on the controller. There wasn't any editing done in the vid, watch the time count on the bottom right.

/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Re: Basica guarding and Fuzzy guarding concept further explained.

CrewNYC updated me on the terminology used by the Japanese for the crouch dashing concept. Some of you may have been mad at me for calling that "fuzzy guarding," I was just using it loosely for a lack of better term, but now we can all agree. The motion is called Motion Cut by the Japanese. It's basically what we call crouch dash canceling except it's done only once and ends with a high guard. It's a very useful technique to employ when you are in disadvantaged (- frame) situation as show in the clip above. It will crouch dash under a throw attempt, but also block highs and mids as many of you already know. I should distinguish this concept from what most people have known about "fuzzy blocking" though. This concept is a little different from simply switching between low guard and high guard, since that motion has you holding down the whole time, it's not the same as performing a crouch dash where there is no input of .

 

Re: Basica guarding and Fuzzy guarding concept further explained.

Thanks Ninjin-san. Excellent explanation for us all.

 

Re: Basica guarding and Fuzzy guarding concept further explained.

Yes, that was excellent srider. Here's a part I don't get:

My understanding of your information: After getting hit, you use df, df (no guard) to avoid a throw, which means you must not press guard for at least eight frames. A double palm is gonna come out in 12 frames, so you must press guard before the double palm comes out. In theory that means you have a 3 frame window (press guard at frames 9, 10, 11) to block that double palm. But here's where it gets tricky, the throw stays active IIRC for 4 frames, so really you must NOT press guard during frames 9, 10, or 11... or else you'll stand up into the throw.

The only thing I can think of is that modifying that double palm takes at least 2 frames or so, so you must press guard 13 frames after getting hit pretty much, and possibly 14 frames after getting hit is acceptible.
So are we talking 1 frame timing? Any holes here? From experimentation I seem to remember finding that even when buffered, modifying an attack takes 2 frames. That could be wrong.

 

Re: Basica guarding and Fuzzy guarding concept further explained.

[ QUOTE ]
I should distinguish this concept from what most people have known about "fuzzy blocking" though. This concept is a little different from simply switching between low guard and high guard, since that motion has you holding down G the whole time, it's not the same as performing a crouch dash where there is no input of G.

[/ QUOTE ]

But that *is* fuzzy guarding. Fuzzy is not just bobbing up and down while holding G. It's exactly as you first described. Remember, fuzzy guarding is the ability to seemingly block high, low, mid, while not being thrown - it's best achieved through your description of successfully passing that trial.

cheers,

 

Re: Basica guarding and Fuzzy guarding concept further explained.

Llanfair, what I'm trying to get at here is that "Motion Cut" is not something where you are holding down at all times. Most people seems to think that fuzzy guarding is staying crouch guarded until the opponent attacks. The key for the motion cut is that during the transition between standing to cd and back to standing, there is no input. Try this in the Akira challenge. if you get hit by ,, and start holding +, Akira will always catch you with the throw.

/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Re: Basica guarding and Fuzzy guarding concept further explained.

Impressive Strider, keep it up.

 

Re: Basica guarding and Fuzzy guarding concept further explained.

Thanks Srider...I can't wait to get my grubby little hands on evo so I can pull my hair out like the rest of you bastards. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

BTW...can we have the Japanese for "motion cut"...I'm trying to do this one or two words at a time...watch my vocabulary grow by leaps & bounds!

 

Re: Basica guarding and Fuzzy guarding concept further explained.

[ QUOTE ]

Llanfair, what I'm trying to get at here is that "Motion Cut" is not something where you are holding down at all times... The key for the motion cut is that during the transition between standing to cd and back to standing, there is no input.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that. You described it in your first post, right? /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Most people seems to think that fuzzy guarding is staying crouch guarded until the opponent attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, then most people are wrong - it's not that. What I was trying to say was that your description for "Motion Cut" is what fuzzy guarding is actually supposed to be. It's not bobbing while holding G, it's not crouching while holding G, as you point out as well.
Essentially all I was getting at is that fuzzy guarding and motion cut are one and the same thing. So I guess overall I was poking at the fact that there's no reason to have a new term (regardless of what the japanese call it - big deal).

The description you gave for motion cut *is* true fuzzy guarding. That exactly how it was done in VF3 and VF4... /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

cheers,

 

Re: Basica guarding and Fuzzy guarding concept further explained.

Excellent info Srider , I tried it a couple of times before i read this thread and I could not do it then. I'll try again now. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Re: Basica guarding and Fuzzy guarding concept further explained.

What are ways of countering a motion cutting opponent? Are there any weaknesses?

 

re-set the situation

fuzzy guard/motion cut is a very powerful tool but its not invulnerable. The one major stand out counter has always been low throws but if you play a character that doesn't have one you need to make some changes.

Watch the video that Srider provided again and you'll notice that he's reacting to a coming threat after being disadvantaged (throw, dbpm, or LBF). The PK hits him and he is automatically going into fuzzy guard in order to protect himself from the immediate coming threat.

Why is this important because you can bait out a fuzzy guard just the same way you can a real move. In the same way that you can defeat someone with great Evade skills by delaying your attack (say Akira's Shoulder Ram) and catching them out of the impoverished dodge you can defeat fuzzy guard.

In the video example Srider points out that you crouch dash into G but not immediately or you'll stand into the throw. so you delay the G and then look and react to the possible low attack; this way you avoid a throw, block a fast mid attack and retain sense and initiative enough to block the low attack. To defeat the fuzzy guarder without low throws you need to remove the idea of an immediate counter and delay your options. It’s a change up. This is no different from being in a Throw Advantage situation, knowing your opponent can TEG consistently and delaying your throw options to foil his escape.

A standing kick guard (KG feint) is a good tool since it provokes a reaction from the fuzzy guarding opponent but enters a delay of a real attack or throw into the mix.

I think (and encourage correction if I’m wrong) that to beat a competent fuzzy guarder you need to continually reset the situation they are trying to avoid. The idea is to not continually apply flowcharts without interruption but to recognize changes and adapt to them.

If I am in a situation where I know I should apply fuzzy I may do so. This means you should realize I may apply fuzzy guard and instead of validating my response, reset the situation by delaying your options and take advantage of my mis-step. Of course, I could know that you'll know and...blah blah blah...but that's what makes VF VF.

GE

 

Re: Basica guarding and Fuzzy guarding concept further explained.

It's cool, I just remember being yelled at before for referring to these movements as 'fuzzy guarding'. Just trying to becareful here, but anyways, the act of canceling your crouch dash with specifically is what they mean by Motion Cut. So now we know, like Llanfair pointed out, that it's a technique to incorporate into the fuzzy guarding game.
/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Re: Basica guarding and Fuzzy guarding concept further explained.

GE already mentioned delaying attacks, but one other way is to simply use other moves that have different speeds. So instead of double palm, for example, go for a yoho (especially with a bit of crouch dash). If the opponent has the fuzzy guarding rhythm memorized for double plam-low back fist, the longer-executing yoho may just do the trick.

As an aside, if you guys watch Hakushon's Lau, he is a master at beating fuzzy guard.

 

very good thread.. just keepin it bumped 4 da noobs /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Hey, don't bump threads!*^%^! People don't use the search enough as it is...
But it's ok to give someone props for a thoughtful and useful post /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif