Basic Tactics: Anti-Low Punch

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Chanchai, Jan 11, 2002.

  1. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Though I am confident that many VF4 players here are now accustomed to handling low punch whoring situations, I still think it's a good subject to post on. Probably a subject that even the most secretive of players wouldn't mind commenting on because much of it has become common knowledge to a degree.

    From time to time, I do still hear some players bitching that low punch is way too powerful in VF4, but in my experience, I've seen that low punches are easily punished and handled by most characters. Some characters still have their issues with low punch and require some time. Most characters seem to have options that are almost on the spot. Anyways, following is what I posted in the Minnesota thread, and it's far from complete. Add what you will, argue against what you will. I think it's a good topic for beginners so they can get past the low punch whoring phase.

    Low punching is a very valid and VERY BEATABLE tactic. I'll just list some character specific ways of punishing low punch off the top of my head, there are many more. These are generally options from up close, withholding dodging--though I may include dodge attacks.

    Akira: Knee. b+P+K+G sabaki. Low reversal. Dodge attack.

    Aoi: Low reversal. Some sabaki. DF+P. Dodge attack.

    Jacky: Knee.

    Jeffry: Knee.

    Kage: Hop kick. db+K. uf+K early a bit. Kickflip(?). b+K early a bit. Some of his new moves seem to handle low punches as well I think.

    Lau: I don't play Lau enough to really know something that can whore low punches on the spot, I'm guessing one of his new moves. Hop attack has to be entered a bit early.

    Lei Fei: Quite a few things, but simplest is u+P+K+G crane stance. uf+K+G.

    Lion: u+K, must be performed early. db+P+K.

    Pai: swallow kicks. ub+K(?).

    Sarah: flipkick. hop kicks. low punch sabaki. Many, many more I'm sure.

    Shun: u+K (best option imo). Dodge attack. Hop attacks. Some hand stand options. KK (early). f+K+G.

    Vanessa: Dodge punch (good for pissing off a low puncher). Early d+K combo. Many more that I wouldn't know at this point.

    Wolf: Knee. Low punch reversal. Tons more that I can't remember.

    -Chanchai
     
  2. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    One very interesting thing about the scene in Tokyo is that the level of success of certain tactics directly corresponds to the level dan. Generally, abusing the low punch will only work up to the chu dan level. You can use the low punch -> throw smartly from the 2-4 dan level, but you will be punished if you use it too much. Any higher, and the low punch is used almost exclusively as a way to gain the advantage, and even then, players tend to use other moves. 2+ dan players know how to defend against low punch MC situations, and 4+ dan players defend/react especially well to the point where landing a low punch MC doesn't seem like a big deal at all.
     
  3. alucard

    alucard Well-Known Member

    ...landing a low punch MC doesn't seem like a big deal
    at all


    Is this a joke or what?
    An MC low punch effectively creates a hit/throw
    opportunity, and more importantly, it also "brain freezes"
    your opponent.
    Unless your opponent is able to mash out MTE-G consistently
    right after his attack had been interrupted by your low
    punch, it can't be "no big deal".
     
  4. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    No man, it's no joke. Those high dan players really know how to defend against low punches extremely well. I mean, of course, the advantage is yours if you land the MC punch, but damage after is hardly automatic.
     
  5. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    actually a Low P will beat knee (closeup) in quite a number of situations.

    Jeff,
    so is does the Low+P (MC) guarantees a throw?? If it does, then it is there is no "good" way to handle it as it is like a block Akira Shrm, basically you have to guess. Maybe a Low+P (MC) do not guarantee throw. Have anyone done a controlled experiment on this?
     
  6. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Bedwettah wrote a direct response in the Minnesota thread (in Jamboree) and I thought I would post it here (with permission), since it just goes with the topic. The following was posted by Bedwettah:

    -Chanchai
    ___________________________________________

    >>Akira: Knee. b+P+K+G sabaki. Low reversal. Dodge >>attack.
    >>Jacky: Knee.
    >>Jeffry: Knee.

    I don't know if anyone at the mall remembers when I 'utilized' many low punches to end a long jesse howard winning streak with jeffrey, but anyway I know for a fact that knees do NOT plow through low punches at any distance, I saw my low punches interrupting his knee animation every time. Also you are not realizing how risky throwing out a low reversal here. I've seen people here base their entire game (IMO) on low punch->throw and low punch->mid move. Unless yer being super predictable with the low punches, which admittedly sometimes I am, I don't think low reversal is really reliable.
    The sabaki shit is far from garaunteed too. Don't ask me why but I know for a fact that my Vanessa d/b+p (DS) was being interrupted by low punches. Also I again know for a fact that low punch interrupts pai's u/f+kk, cuz I use this move often and have it interupted by low punch. Yeah its early in the animation but that's the point, low punches are very very fast and right now it seems like a good idea to base your game around them.

    I know you think everyone should know how to 'handle' low punches everytime now, and that we are all at the 'basic' level; but I can assure you that people here are about as fucking far from scrubs as one can get, and they still low punch alot (IMO) and get beaten by low punch tactics.
     
  7. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Alan, if it does, I think you have to execute the throw immediately after LP...i.e., it'll be just like VF3 where you have to anticipate the MC. On sight--reacting to the yellow spark and then throwing--the throw doesn't seem to be guaranteed.
     
  8. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    I have NEVER seen this yellow spark thing... maybe I am color blind...
     
  9. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    I agree with alucard, LP on MC can be a disaster. If your opponent lands this on you, your head will go spinning while guessing... Is your opponent going for throw, or is he/she gonna float combo or wat?
     
  10. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    I believe... Firstly LP with MC is highly throw possible. Secondly, LP beats Knee at close quarters (due to shorter frames) while Knee beats LP if LP doesn't intercept the knee. Quite common sense answer.
     
  11. alucard

    alucard Well-Known Member

    ...the advantage is yours if you land the MC low
    punch...


    Getting an advantage might not win you a match, but it
    sets you up for the win, and don't forget that the low
    punch is a low risk, high priority move.

    To Alan:
    I am pretty sure that a throw is not guaranteed after an MC
    low punch, mosts attacks will foil your opponents throw
    attempts.

    To Chanchai:
    I disagree with almost everything on your low punch counter
    table. Knees will never beat low punches, go try this:
    Get your friend to do a low punch(normal hit)--->knee on
    you, now try to interrupt your friend's knee with your own
    low punch, you WILL interrupt his knee. Get the picture?

    Dodges. Get a friend(Jacky) to MC dodge--->elbow your low
    punch, you WILL be able to block the elbow. Crazy as it
    sounds, you will even be able to block the canned p+k+g
    dodge attack(bar Akira and maybe Kage, Jacky/Vanessa).

    The best way, IMHO, to deal with low punch is sabaki. The
    beauty of sabakis lie in their potential to beat other
    attacks, other than low punches. For example, Akira's
    d/f+p+k+g has high priority VS low punches, and its a
    decent move by itself.

    Oh, and Jeff and Wolf can MC dodge into low side grab, but
    its not easy(need to g cancel).

    I still don't like the way low punches work in VF4...
     
  12. MrWhite

    MrWhite Well-Known Member


    To Chanchai:
    I disagree with almost everything on your low punch counter
    table. Knees will never beat low punches, go try this:
    Get your friend to do a low punch(normal hit)--->knee on
    you, now try to interrupt your friend's knee with your own
    low punch, you WILL interrupt his knee. Get the picture?"


    Jeff is a perfect example of how a knee beats a lp in open stance: the LP doesnt even reach Jeff as he knees.
     
  13. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    ...must be. Anytime ANYTHING hits in VF4 (save for throws), there's a brief flash which lights up on the opponent where he was hit: white for normal or mC, yellow for MC, red for stagger.
     
  14. imf

    imf Well-Known Member

    I personally hate the low punch for the most part. I am relatively new to VF, but a long time tekken player. I sometimes wish I could just tap d/f and destroy that shit. I mean a universal low parry would completely change the game, I know. But, if it only worked on low punches...maybe it would be alright?

    There are people in my area who's entire game is based around d+p throw/mid....:p Which is about the most disgusting way I can think of to play VF outside of mashing. At least for now they aren't good enough to know the difference between a blocked low punch and a hit low punch(snicker)not to mention MC, so I can just wait to block it and then counter. Which brings me to my question...I was fighting Kage the other day with Lau when this guy started his close fight tactics of d+p/d+p/d+k/mid/throw. I waited for the blocked d+p and then did Lau's f+p elbow...and he beat me with another d+p...!? Is Kage's low punch better than others? I've seen this only with Kage where I block d+p and have a hard time stopping him from doing another...is there something to it? I thought that an elbow like Lau's would beat another d+p after the first is blocked?? Am I wrong? Is Kage different? Did I just miss the timing?

    Sorry for the scruby question guys...thanks for any help.

    I can't wait for the home release. And frame data!!
     
  15. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    More food for discussion/versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    Thanks for supplying the example, I'll have to try it sometime. Someone brought it to my attention that RAPID low punches bring down the knee. My bad, it's an area I overlooked completely, low punches being used repeatedly against a knee. Something more that I've learned.

    As for dodge attacks, I only labeled the dodge attacks for Akira, Aoi, Shun, and Vanessa's dodge-punch (not her dodge attack). From what I've seen, in anticipation of a low punch, all of the above seem to really punish the low puncher when performed, though Aoi's dodge attack may need to be performed a bit earlier.

    I didn't say dodge attacks in general worked against low punches, and I withheld dodging for a reason. There are various dodging options depending on your character, but I haven't found anything semi-solid against a low punch.

    Anyways, thanks for your input. Next time I'm at a VF4 machine, I'll experiment further with the low punches. But I have had no problems against anticipated low punches using the moves I had mentioned before and other tactics (aggressive or passive).

    -Chanchai
     
  16. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Alan: LOL, that's what you get for playing MT Vanessa too much.

    Alucard: Yah loh, I'm not saying LP sucks, I'm just saying that you simply cannot beat 2+ dan players in Japan with LP tactics alone. Maybe you can, but it's hard work.

    As for DA, actually, I do think that Jacky's DA will beat an LP, done at the same time. The key is doing the P+K+G early enough such that you barely see the dodge animation. I don't think Aoi's DA will beat an LP (too slow), Wolf's won't, not sure about Lei's, but practically everyone else's would.

    As for the knee example...it's actually not that surprising. After LP normal hit, the LPer is most likely at an advantage. Also, I'm pretty sure an LP executes faster than a knee, so the knee won't beat an LP unless the frame advantage is right. I'm not sure what will win if the LP is blocked though (probably LP).

    Iron Monkey Fist: I'm VERY sure that if you block an LP, Lau's elbow will beat the next LP. Hell, Kage's elbow will beat the next LP. You're just too slow...
     
  17. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    jeff,

    where is the spark supposed to be found?? of course you cannot beat any one using ONE technique but I still see LP throw in some of the movies and a quite a number of LP interrupt.

    Alucard,
    where are you playing these days? Never seen you for quite some time.
     
  18. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    alan, check your mister bungle thread for the spark info ...
    <a target="_blank" href=http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=versus&Number=22054&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=>http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=versus&Number=22054&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=</a>
     
  19. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Yeah, LP -> throw still works against high level people when you interrupt them while they are in the middle of inputting a string or attack...like if say someone is attempting P,P,b+P and you interrupt the second P with LP and throw immediately, the high dan player may be in the middle of inputting b+P and can get thrown. Lots of time in those movies where the LP -> throw connects, that is the case. Also, in my experience, sometimes Tokyo players will dodge throw escape after an MC LP and you can still land the throw. Throws still happen, obviously, it's just like any other guessing game, but it's hardly as automatic as it generally is elsewhere.

    The moral of the lesson is that if you depend on the LP to win, you're not going to win much in Japan. (Similarly, if you don't know how to defend the LP well, you're not going to be a very high dan).
     
  20. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    Mr White, its subjective. If you do a controlled test, LP and Knee, assuming done on the same instance, LP interupts knee. (at close quarters) But, if Both characters are a distance apart, Knee beats LP bcos LP cannot reach the opponent but knee can... There is never a right or wrong to which move has priority (got to consider 'reach')... The most important thing is to predict your opponents' attacks.
     

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