Basic Tactics: Anti-Low Punch

Been a little busy lately, havent been playing since the
last VF session with Jeff. (Also because sian)

To Jeff:
To surprise and interrupt...Isn't that the whole idea of
low punch? Lets face it, a low punch can only MC you if you
were trying something eg.elbow, you mean to say there are
players in Japan who can do DTEG right after they've been
"shocked" by a LP MC? Quite...impossible.

Low punch is ugly and it makes VF4 look cheap but, its
strong.

 

Something I "interpretted" from playing against Boston's own Shang during his visit to Portland, and I may be mistaken, is his use of R-DTE after getting hit by a low punch.

If he got hit by one of my low punch, he would often do something like mid-reversal, P+G, f+P+G against my Lion. It might not be the safest options, but it's an illustration of just another option one can do against somebody playing with a low punch flowchart.

What would often happen was that the only times I nailed Shang (in the hour that we played) after a low punch was when I would do a low attack, high attack, or one of the alternative throws like HCB+P+G. If all he did was that particular option of course, but it was simple enough to do and he would nail it whether my low punch would MC or not.

In any case, by picking the right options of narrowing down my responses, a successful choice for him would more than make up with interest. He would deal more damage than one low punch MC.

The weakness to this particular OS are 1) opponent follows low punch with an unaccounted option (naturally) 2) Opponent delays followup to low punch and you get a reversal whiff.

Just another example of an anti-low punch tactic. I'm talking tactics here, not 100% guaranteed plug and chug/versus/images/icons/wink.gif That would be boring imo if that was all we could ever talk about in VF.

-Chanchai

 

>>Low punch is ugly and it makes VF4 look cheap but, its
>>strong.

In regards to high level japanese players not using low punches. My thought was that these cheap and ugly tactics were generally were shunned over there, so while low punch led flowcharts may be effective, they are not used alot. I remember someone saying that when koreans went to a us tournament once they were upset about people doing too much d+4 and shit.

 

Part of what makes the Japanese better at VF than the US and a lot of games in general is that they don't buy so much into the whole philosophy of 'cheap'. Cheap is an excuse word, it's not an accurate description for a dinky 10 point low attack.

If the Japanese don't abuse low punch, it's probably because it's not as almighty as people like to claim.

 

True, I mean I must say I am one of those low punch freaks that iron monkey fist was talking about. However unless it MC's I see no reason to really panic. Okay to tired...was gonna make a valid point...brain...just...fried.

All I know is people in FL play VF4 like VF2 where low punch was very valid indeed imo.

 

why is people under the impression that there is not much LP in Japan? Hey look at the movies from Daioh. I see plenty of LP. Of course you do not expect thegood players to LP repeatedly but there is a LOT of LP.

 

Alan:

There's ISN'T that much LP, at least not compared to Singapore. People don't win or lose by the LP at higher dans; there are many players that I have played against in Singapore (and also in Tokyo...the 2- dans) that live and die by the LP. That's my point lah.

Also, I never went to Daoih, so maybe there is a slight difference in culture between Daoih and Kanispo. Hey, LP is a good move, it's just not that abusable among higher dans.

Alucard:

Yes, possible! The good players really know how to observe...i.e., they almost never commit their next attack without seeing what you're doing so even if they are MCed they are often not caught surprised. OK, this sounds like a truism, but trust me when I say that nobody I've played against outside of Tokyo is quite the same, VF3 or VF4.

Bedwettah:

Nope, nothing similar exists in Tokyo, although if you're a LP whore you'll be dismissed as a scrub/beginner.

 

You seem to be under the impression that the Japs don't
think much of low punch. From what I've heard(from a friend
who lives in Japan) and seen(on Jap BBS), it doesn't
seem to be the case.
A lot of the discussions on Jap BBSs revolve around
anti-low punch strategies and from what I've heard, higher
dan players do use low punches, and they will abuse it to
no end if they find that you are incapable of handling it.

Unless you are yomi gawd or something, you will be MC LPed
at some point in a game, and it can sometimes be very
unpredictable.

 

Andrew, you seem to be under the impression that I think the Japanese don't think much of the LP, which is not the case at all. What I stated was that higher dan players aren't afraid of the LP, aren't really bothered by it, and don't depend on it to win.

A lot of the discussions on Jap BBSs revolve around
anti-low punch strategies and from what I've heard, higher
dan players do use low punches, and they will abuse it to
no end if they find that you are incapable of handling it.

That's why I wrote: "The moral of the lesson is that if you depend on the LP to win, you're not going to win much in Japan. (Similarly, if you don't know how to defend the LP well, you're not going to be a very high dan)."

What is the dispute here? I feel like I'm repeating myself...

Also, I should emphasize that most of the high dan players I observe all came from Kanispo...so I don't know if there's a style difference between, let's say, a Kanispo 10-dan and a Spot 21 10-dan, not even to say a difference between a 10-dan from Tokyo or a 10-dan from Kyoto, etc. Maybe Kyoto players depend on LPs more in their game, who knows. But a lot of those guys that I observed had their faces plastered on the wall of Kanispo...apparently, those were guys who ranked highly from tournaments.

Unless you are yomi gawd or something, you will be MC LPed
at some point in a game, and it can sometimes be very
unpredictable.

I'm not saying high dan players won't get MC LPed, I'm saying that after the MC LP, it's not that easy to punish them.

 

Basic Tactics: Lion's Anti-anti-Low Punch

I'm talking tactics here, not 100% guaranteed plug and chug That would be boring imo if that was all we could ever talk about in VF. -Chanchai Shang executes his trow escape flawlessly with total calm.... at least he did against me.;([frown,smirk]
Anyway, speaking of tactics w/ low punch. Lion VF4 has an interesting flowchart w/ d+P
I'm talking tactics here, not 100% guaranteed plug and chug
Lion does not have a reversal in his arsenal, but, he adapts well to the door-knobs that do and employ: R-DTE a little too much.. hopefully you do not abuse low punch... and I must suggest checking out the Lion dojo here at VFDC for more ideas and good flowchart building block.
d+P->b+G->b,df+P->f,f+K,K
d+P->d+P+K->FC_f+P->b,f+K+G
d+P->db,db,N->df+K->df+P,P->df+P
d+P->b,b->df+K->b,f+P+K, etc.
d+P->df+K>HCB+P+G
d+P->df+K>f,db+P+Gd+P+G->u+P
d+P->d+P+K->b+G->df+P,P->df+P
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

 

can you clarify how they defend after a LP MC?? MTE??

 

They always struggle/recover, and after they either attack, DTE, etc., just like any other normal guessing game (when in disadvantage).