Best move in VF?

sorry with best move i meant-beautyful-esthetic moves not effective. Akira's shoulder Ram follwed with the DLC as a juggle is effective.... Often little things like Punch, elbow and Low kicks a la Shun can be very effective...

 

Well, but the counter system in DOA2 is even more complex, when you play with Arcade buttonlayout, we only play with that layout, cause the other is for scrubs.
You have 4 counters:
High attacks
Mid Kicks
Mid Punches
Low attacks

 

I guess you are a Shun player, so maybe YOU can tell what's
the point in Shun's handstand. and is little kicks he can perform in this position, it seems to me like it's the most useless move.

 

The pounce isn't really GUARANTEED...just look at the CPU. Even with perfect execution u+P, you can sideroll out of it.

I have yet to miss with the follow-up pounce, and I play the CPU exclusively. Not that I'm bragging about it, of course. And when the CPU hits me with the combo, the pounce never misses, and I really try to recover quick enough. I've seen mpg clips which can attest to what I'm saying (check 'em out at hardcoregaming.com. Decent VF tourney footage IMO.) And, if I'm not mistaken, there's info about it in the Step 1 Guide on this site (nice basic info to get you started with Jacky).

And think about it. If u+P done with perfect execution, how can it miss?


-GhostDog

 

Let's say I'm Kage...if your DE doesn't knock me down

I didn't say knock down, I said stun. When Akira performs this "throw" it leaves the opponent in a crouched position. Akira can follow up with a DE or a regular elbow. If an elbow hits a crouched opponent, it will <font color=white>stagger</font color=white>. If the opponent is staggered, it is guaranteed that you can attack, or crouch dash and throw (or GB in Akira's case). That's assuming that the opponent doesn't struggle out of the stagger condition quick enough.

(and it won't if you execute it as quick as possible.)

So you're saying that under no circumstances will this combination work? If that were the case, I could try it on someone who has never played VF, or even against the CPU mannequin in training mode, and it wouldn't work, because I couldn't possibly perform the DE quick enough.


-GhostDog

 

Yeah but then most of the canned combos come in with high level attacks, so there isn't much to anticipate. Don't even get me started about DC mode in DoA2, you can pretty much button mash and get a reversal that takes off 1/3 of your life.

At least reversals in VF3 take real skill and yomi ability.

 

Perfect u+P execution = no delay, exact moment etc. It can miss since it CAN be siderolled out of. Check TB mook What did you mean "read step 1 jacky guide"? Don't teach me kid. I know what I'm saying. CreeD, the guide's author, doesn't.

 

Akira's f,b+P+G does leave opponent crouching but you can struggle out of the throw! Before DE/SDE hits me, I'll be standing not crouching. DE hit in that situation results in a stun (not a stagger) With Akira at -3 frames. Now read my previous post again.

Warning: since the situation is so unique (you struggle while crouching), I'm not 100% sure about it. But we did some testing and results turned out to be above. Sometimes the DE staggers, sometimes not. That's all.

 

Don't teach me, kid. I know what I'm saying.

Calm down. When I posted my response, I was not trying to attack. I'm simply going by what I have observed. I stated that you read the Jacky Step 1 guide to see where I got my info. I don't mean to refer to it like it's the bible of VF3. And no, I'm not trying to teach you. You probably know more about this game than I do if you access to a Gamest TB Mook (which I don't have access to/versus/images/icons/frown.gif). I can't have access to all info regarding VF3, but based on footage from tourney mpegs, the Step 1 guide, and personal experience, I said that the pounce was guaranteed.

And just so you don't have to respond to a seperate Akira f,b+P+G post, you're could be right. I didn't know the opponent could struggle out of the throw. I'm assuming you don't mean option select. But wouldn't that be hard to do?



-GhostDog

 

I don't want to start trouble either... "f+P,K -> pounce is virtually guaranteed" instead of just "guaranteed" is all I ask for

 

Was that all you wanted? You got it/versus/images/icons/smile.gif
ahem...<font color=white>f+P,K -> pounce is virtually guaranteed</font color=white>


-GhostDog

 

Well, just to give you an understanding of some of Shun's options from Handstand position:

P+K = rolls forward and hits with an elbow.
K = Handstand kicks
K+G = flip, kick (similar to mule kick)
P+G = catch throw

All of these options are risky, but I can't say they are useless. It's nice watching Nelson use some of them. Especially the catch throw option, and it's not as much for the throw, it's usually to setup for Shun's TA throw as far as I can tell (since Shun lands TA if he misses).

You can approach the stance with u+P+K or HCB or from the sit-down position.

The little kicks have their uses at times. The P+K can annoy some opponents, and for aggressive opponents, the little flip then kick can also be a pain on them. Overall, Shun's handstand is not a useless move in my book, in fact, it's very annoying if your opponent doesn't know how to deal with it or if they don't understand your options from that position. u+P+K to get into hand stand position has a good chance of avoiding against quite a few low attacks.

I tend to use P+K or P+G (catch throw). For different reasons, but I've found them to be annoying to a lot of people. His elbow ( P+K ) has worked great for me as a setup. If it hits, a nice game can be played. If it gets blocked, you have to worry a bit because it is throw counterable, but your opponent has a small time to get that throw in. The catch throw is nice if you get them with the throw (50 points of damage), but as I mentioned earlier, it's nice to setup a TA game. From TA position you can do a number of things including rolling away, d+K+E for a zone if you expect a throw or high/mid attack, K to interrupt some attacks (an awkward attack, though not the fastest with 16 frames of execution and easily punishable if guarded), P+K if you like annoying people (among other things), P+G TA throw to catch your opponent with the TA throw (it's a joy and with good damage, especially if you are drunk).

Overall, it's a fun position for me.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.engr.orst.edu/~saenguni/cs261/Stuff/adamvsnelson.asf>Adam vs. Nelson (with Street Fighter inspired music)</A>
Here's a movie of Adam and Nelson from New York (Akira vs. Shun). Nelson only uses the handstand in the end, but at least you see him using it. Though shame on Adam for going for Akira's back throw/versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

-Chanchai

 

No I 'm no Shun player I prefer Jacky,Lion,Akira but Shun is also very fun to play, when you are sitting (d,d) you can change to the handstand(b). Shun can be very confusing if you don't know him and like chanchai accuratly discribed even the handstand can be dangerous if it's used in an appropiate situation..

cya whitecross

 

Well this post is in regards to the whole thread, but anyway:

ESK -> pounce is guaranteed on flat ground. Every time, no matter against which character as long as the ESK hits within distance. On upwards terrain, I can't be sure but I would think it's also guaranteed (less damage on the pounce?). On the downwards terrain the pounce is not anywhere near being guaranteed. It's possible the pounce may miss if the ESK hits while the opponent is escaping, but in that situation it's more circumstantial than something the designers intended.

It's true that Akira's f,b+P+G can be struggled out of, but in practice it's very difficult to do consistently. (What's the timing again? Recovery on the 21st frame or something like that?). Akira players can use this throw with the expectation that on average the opponent would not be able to recover correctly. Meaning, if you're comfortable with the DE follow up and the stagger situation it creates, don't be afraid to go for it.

As for Shun's handstand:

P+K = rolls forward and hits with an elbow
Good for opponents running in or crouch dashing in or just waiting within striking distance while crouching.

K = Handstand kicks
Has a great chance of interrupting an opponent's attack. It's a better move than most people give it credit for, but the key to making it connect is that you'd have to be sure the opponent is closing in.

K+G = flip, kick (similar to mule kick)
The flip before the mule kick makes Shun difficult to hit against certain high and middle attacks. Also useful because it hits middle.

P+G = catch throw
Good against opponents just waiting for Shun to do something while standing up. It may catch unwary K-steppers too if the timing is right (or lucky /versus/images/icons/wink.gif).

Also don't forget that Shun can hop back and forth in the handstand position, and that can be used to goad the opponent or force the opponent to make a mistake (or even to just spur the opponent to do something).

Overall, Shun's handstand attacks aren't exactly Shun's staple moves, but they *can* be useful if you know what to do and if you can correctly predict your opponent's moves.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ice-9 on 04/15/01 01:45 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

Yes! :> -nt-

-nt-

 

Not so.
If u know how to use it( just as Ice-9 described it)...it is one of the most PAINFUL moves to be hit by in the game.

Painful not because of combos...
Rather, the demoralising effects it does to one....ugh~~~~

Just remember this
Sarah's TA was once thought to be USELESS.

To me..it is one of her BEST moves.

<font color=red>SummErs' 'enemy SPODED, enemy DOWN'

 

I think you're right. With Virtua Fighter 3, the joy lies not in winning with some endless combo string, but with a solid staple of punches and kicks that just frustrate the hell out of your opponent.

My favorite matches are ones that most closely match real martial arts fights. Two foes jump and dodge around each other's attacks, and the winner is he who is just a little bit faster reading his opponent. It's certainly not the flashiest, but as someone who plays the game, it's by far the most satisfying.

Oh, BTW, today is my birthday. Since I've been sick as a dog all weekend, I'm stretching my b-day over the whole week. Think of it as an extra Mardi Gras. Party on!

Daniel Thomas

 

What do you guys think of Akira's "F,F+P", his Elbow.
I finished the game yesterday on Hardest just using this move
and didn't lose a single match, even not against Dural. I also only blocked in some matches, but didn't use some sidesteps.
The cool thing is that a second elbow hits as juggle after the first hits as counter. I think it's a good move, quick, good priority, easy to pull off.

 

ff+P would be Akira's Dashing Elbow (DE).

Actually, GLC gives a good post on this one, in this thread. He was referring to the example of Akira's fb+P+G throw and why DE is not that good of an option. In that context anyways (but I think it applies in general).

Thing to remember about Akira's DE is that Akira is at a disadvantage (frame-wise) unless he staggers. Ripping this straight off of the moveslists that are available on GLC's page (Also known as Rich's site--http://world.std.com/~opus) as well as Virtua Project, you can see the advantage frames of Akira's DE.

To explain the figures (and hopefully encourage some people to learn how to read a detailed VF3tb moveslist--this stuff is very useful):

DE is performed ff+P (duh)
On normal hit it does 20 damage in general, and 40 damage to Taka (if I read the list correctly)
It is a mid-level attack (duh)
It gets reversed by whatever reverses elbows
It takes 10 frames to execute (10 frames before it actually hits)
If the opponent is near--Akira is at a 4 frame disadvantage if it's blocked, but if it hits the opponent, they'll fall down.
If the opponent is "far"--Akira is at a 7 frame disadvantage if it's blocked, a 3 frame disadvantage on a normal hit, and only a single frame advantage if it counter-hits.

Look at the moveslist, try to figure out where I got the data I listed above, and you should be in good shape to understand what the data on the moveslists mean and imply. From there, judging and comparing moves "theoretically" is not too hard.

In concluding the stuff on Akira's ff+P Dashing Elbow, I find it to be an alright move, but it doesn't really benefit you against players that know how to handle it. If it's close enough and hits, it knocks down. If it's not that close and even if it hits, Akira is at a disadvantage (it'll practically be his turn to defend) unless it counter hits, in which the benefit is very small, but at least Akira does have the advantage. Now you gotta figure out your chances of counter-hitting your opponent/versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

As far as I know, Akira's DE is a good move, one of his standard moves. But it has to be used properly against knowledgeable or seasoned opponents. And that is probably hard. There's your non-expert response.

In the end, it's all up to yomi and experience I guess.

-Chanchai

P.S. I think GLC is among the best qualified to give an in-depth, "All you wanted to know about Akira's DE but was afraid to ask." (GLC, *hint* *hint*).

To all of those who have not done so in the past yet, go to either of the detailed moveslists at Virtua Project (look up KBCat's profile) or GLC and Rich's page (look up Mr. Bungle's profile, should be listed there) and get to know how to read the moveslists and all they reveal. It should answer so many of your questions/versus/images/icons/smile.gif It's answered a ton of mine!

 

Chanchai, you're looking way, way waaaay too deep into the stats. Akira's DE is one of the most useful moves in the game, period.

Just think about it: the DE is an extremely fast, middle and extended range attack that is virtually uncounterable. Sure, Akira may be -4 or -7 if blocked, but then what moves with those kind of properties don't put you at a disadvantage?

Further, even if Akira is -7 the fastest move in the game, Pai/Kage/Sarah's standing P is 8 frames. This means that Akira can not only block or escape the P if the opponent blocks the DE but can reverse the punch. Against slower characters like Wolf, Jeffry and Taka and you should be able to see why the DE is such a great move.

DE's only weakness is that it's easily sidestepped.

Finally, the essence of what Weisskreuz wrote of the DE as a follow up to the f,b+P+G is correct. The throw forces the opponent to crouch and a DE follow up, done correctly, will stagger the opponent unless the opponent recovers from the pull in throw (which as I wrote above is very difficult to do consistently).

My advice to you budding players is actually *not* to get too obsessed with movelists and stats. They are an excellent way of analyzing the game *after* you get a handle on the basics, but I must emphasize that they are by no means necessary to excelling at the game.

Some of the best players in the world don't know jack shit about stats, and they still kick ass.