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Building an offense

Discussion in 'Lau' started by Krye, Mar 31, 2009.

  1. Krye

    Krye French Star Player

    XBL:
    Krye NL
    So I think it's time I reworked my offense a bit.

    Up until now I've mostly been relying on things that are too easy to avoid, like 6pp to kokei, and therefore leave me with a lot of holes in my offense.

    I've got some ideas of where I want to go, but I figured some extra input wouldn't hurt, so I'd like to ask you guys what moves you use to mount your offense and to maybe give some explanations with those moves if you can spare the time.

    I would also appreciate input from non-Lau players, it's usually really helpful to know what moves my opponents feel are hard to deal with.

    Thanks!
     
  2. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
    XBL:
    freedfrmtheReal
    I have had difficulties dealing with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to kokei.
     
  3. Krye

    Krye French Star Player

    XBL:
    Krye NL
    I know some people have difficulties with it, but when you learn to consistently duck the followup on reaction, it becomes a very weak tool all of a sudden /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif .
     
  4. Ladon

    Ladon Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Ladon---
    Have you checked the other threads Krye? Those would probably give you a great basis.

    Personally I like 66P+K, 9P, 33P, 3K, 6P+K, 46P, and 6K+G

    AW YEAH!
     
  5. Krye

    Krye French Star Player

    XBL:
    Krye NL
    I have, I suppose I should go a little more in-depth in what I'm looking for:

    IMO, my problems, as far as offense go, lie in the close-range distance. I often find it hard to set my opponents up for solid mixups. Up until now, I've mostly relied on kokei stance to get my damage.

    This, however, leaves me with a lot of holes. Both in the process of getting into kokei and the fact that kokei itself is full of holes and feels like it shouldn't be used too much if you want to keep it effective.

    So I'm really looking for the basic things:

    How should I push my advantage when I 6p someone that crouches,
    when I hit someone with a MC p, what mid should I use to press nitaku..
    Things like that!

    Thanks for the input, though! 6k+g is awesome, the perfect 'no bullshit' move!
     
  6. Jeneric

    Jeneric Well-Known Member

    From my experience playing against you, I think the key is that you definitely should incorporate more direct throws into your offense, especially in +7 to +10 situations. You were pretty good at punishing people for evading already, but throws is such a big threat in this game and you should exploit it more (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to throw will NEVER go out of style /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif ). You want people to duck/attack/ETE or whatever to create openings and throws is the best way to do it.

    I think you relied a little bit too heavily on setups and were constantly trying to get to those situations where you could apply them and they truly were a bit of a pain at first. You should really stick to basics as default, I wouldn't stray to far from basic direct mid/throw mixup until your opponent has shown he can consistently deal with both options and not just try to attack his way out. Once he learns that use more of the special tools like guardbreaks, delay attacks etc.

    You're already using a lot of his best mids well, like the basic /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif poking, but as I said last weekend you shouldn't do the entire string so often, only do it if you know the last hit will get in or sometimes just to keep your opponent honest. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is imo something you should use a lot more, it's a great move on all hits really, even on normal hit you can get 50 dmg out of it.
     
  7. Krye

    Krye French Star Player

    XBL:
    Krye NL
    Thanks, this is the stuff I was looking for /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

    4p+k is something I should use more, yeah.. A 70+ damage MC launcher that's only -1 on block... why am I not spamming this move... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
     
  8. social_ruin

    social_ruin Well-Known Member

    i know this is very vague, but i would say more than what moves u should be using u need to explore what execution frames you should be using. Obvisouly the fastest possible with the greatest damage coefficient for the frame advantage. I know this may seem obvious, but still. Then i like to build a network of mixups from the optimal move outward. Keep in mind that u should check your special as these are often moves that take on extra disadvantages in frames, for the offsetting benefit of shutting down an additional option of your opponents. Here is where u watch your opponent and adapt. If they rarely or don't use a move with properties that attack the disadvantage of a special property move or even big move, then use that. It is kinda like pot odds. Again, this may sound basic, but if u build ur offensive in layer upon layer from an optimal starting point, then u get to a point where u can really go far off the beaten path of optimal play while creating lines that will continue to take advantage of your opponent. Unique play can easily cause a 1f delay, greatly increasing the strength of certain lines beyond what the "theory fighter paper may suggest".
    Of course as almost its own seperate facet of the game, i like to keep an oki for every situation. Throw/vs rising crush. And build my layers on that. I have a move that easily crushes rising to mix with throw. And the more u can double up on options here the better. For example, lei fei's 9 k+g is very straight forward for beating rising attacks or opponent trying to duck throw. Throw for opps trying to block 9kg. Then from 9 k+g oki opponents uderstand they need to evade when rising, but i have 8k which is full circular and again cannot be ducked. Also on block, it leaves me at back turned creating another mix up game that i like, although some opponents know how to shut this down forcing me to use other circulars that don't also cover a ducking opponent, taking away 1 layer of my advantage. Also, in your mix-ups stay conscience of your opponents health. Of course, you need to keep a sweep at the ready to round out the full arsenal of attacking an opponent on wake up.
    I personally may want to avoid my strongest okis for little health and try something dinky like 2k. This reduces the adaptation rate of your opponents.
    Hope this helps in the idea of how to build an overwhelming offense. If you already know all this, which ya prolly do, then hopefully it helps someone else.
     
  9. Combolammas

    Combolammas Sheep Content Manager Goh

    Hum, I'm not sure if this is of any help but I watched a couple of your matches and came up with a couple of things.

    - Like Jeneric already said b+P+K should be used more.
    b+P+K
    on block
    - ETEG / P follow-up(s) / P+K follow-up
    - on hit confirm to guaranteed P,K into Kokei / -1 mix-ups
    - on MC confirm to combo

    You should try punishing high whiffed moves after ducking under them with FC df+P,f+P more IMO. While df+P+K is nice when it hits it's hard to get it on reaction since it's so slow.

    More hit-confirms. This is pretty much the basis of my own Lau play. df+P, f+P, b+P+K, df+K etc and confirm what happens (block, hit, MC, whiff, crouch block for df+P...) into Lau's basic mix-ups or combos. Lau can get so much damage out of non-knockdown safe-if-confirmed strings that lead in to mix-ups.

    And in the end, more throws. Gets blocking, can get evade and with slight delay beats fuzzy too.

    I'm at a loss with Lau's nitaku situations too. Lau lacks a pinpointed ~17 frame mid with good MC damage potential. You either have to use a weaker mid (like elbow or sidekick. ub+K+G can work too.) or go for evasive properties with high avoiding b+P+K or low avoiding u/uf+P. f,f+P+K works nice here too and leads to BT mix-up on hit.

    Not sure if this helps. You're probably better player than I am anyway.
     
  10. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
    XBL:
    freedfrmtheReal
    hitconfirm followup P into a combo? Or dash and throw. Or elbow again if they think they can struggle and fuzzy it, although a higher damage option may exist, its good to get basics down first.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    when I hit someone with a MC p, what mid should I use to press nitaku..
    </div></div>
    Elbow just like everyone else. If you use a slower midattack they can fuzzy it with CD fuzzy. (even though a standard reaction is not to try fuzzy). I THINK /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is ok too, but im currently blind and cant find it from Laus movelist..

    Also a bit mo general observation about your playstyle. I agree with previous posters in that you relied too much on setups. Although your offense was really good once you got momentum, such as in okizeme, you were kind of at loss in a neutral situation. When you see opponent just stand and block, you tended to poke them with some move to try to create a setup. A really important option in this case is simply do a throw. Because throw ends up being a 0-framer in this situation its a really important and effective tool. If you can "confirm" that opponent is standing and blocking, you can get a lot of 0f throws through.
     
  11. Combolammas

    Combolammas Sheep Content Manager Goh

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Elbow just like everyone else. If you use a slower midattack they can fuzzy it with CD fuzzy. (even though a standard reaction is not to try fuzzy). I THINK is ok too, but im currently blind and cant find it from Laus movelist.. </div></div>
    It's hidden in the "jumping attacks" part for some reason. It doesn't say how many frames it is though.
    I tried testing it once but I can't remember if I got any results for the speed (I didn't have anyone to help).
     
  12. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
    XBL:
    freedfrmtheReal
    It's hidden in the "jumping attacks" part for some reason. It doesn't say how many frames it is though.
    I tried testing it once but I can't remember if I got any results for the speed (I didn't have anyone to help). </div></div>

    The reason I was thinking about it is because I think its 15 frames which would be good in +8 and it results in combo on normal hit.
     
  13. Combolammas

    Combolammas Sheep Content Manager Goh

    If it's that fast I'll have to start using it loads more. Have to test the speed to be sure though.
     
  14. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
    XBL:
    freedfrmtheReal
    Propably not... I dont remember where I got that idea but Id definitely like it tested.
     
  15. Jeneric

    Jeneric Well-Known Member

    ???

    Since when can you duck throws after being hit by a MC /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif ?
     
  16. tonyfamilia

    tonyfamilia Well-Known Member

    Big block of text.
    Can not read.
    Does not compute.

    ... Why Social, why? All you have to do is press the enter key twice... that's it... just press it... twice... just... one... two...
     
  17. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
    XBL:
    freedfrmtheReal
    Great mind at work as always, well done Manji >_<
     
  18. social_ruin

    social_ruin Well-Known Member

    lol. Fine. Put break in it for you.

    And now the cliff notes:
    I like to attack mid, AND i like to throw. Sometimes i attack low, OR i might go high. Then, sometimes, but only sometimes, and not very often, i like to gaurd.

    I find a good mix of attacking low, mid, high, and throw can confuse an opponent. And block works well for when i'm being attacked /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif
     
  19. smb

    smb Well-Known Member

    /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif @ Tfam

    And to social ruin:
    comma's are good, hmmmmmmmkk?
     
  20. tonyfamilia

    tonyfamilia Well-Known Member

    /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
    On topic though: everyone knows that Lau's S tier rank doesn't just come from his attacks, he has a pretty good throw game as well. I think that's one of Lau's strengths is the fact that most people fear his attacks so they tend to evade a lot but Lau has strong answers for pretty much every scenario and has 3 full circulars. They're all high but at least 6K+G is super fast and gives good damage.

    Great moves like Lau's 9P which leave him at a very small dis are great ways for Lau to set up even more offense.
    Examples: 9P-blocked-opponent does 2P-Lau can beat it with 8K+G K
    9P-blocked-opponent does standing P-Lau can beat it with 46P+K.
    Lau can nullify both of his opponent's fastest options.

    As for the whole elbow thing, I agree with whoever wrote "just do the elbow by itself and do the followup P occassionally to keep them honest".
    1P+K is one his most evasive moves and 1P is not used enough by most Lau players cuz it's so slow but the followup attacks can beat out most scenarios.
    1P opponent evades? 1PKK
    1P opponent ducks? 1P3K
    Then you can start mixing up 1P -> throw 1PP -> throw or 9P 1PP low or high finisher.
     

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