Can't anyone make it to the FINAL arcade!

I'm just wondering if anyone in this forum has decided to step it up and make it to the final arade and hold a decent win %. Is this possible? Everyone I talk to has told me that it is just too hard. Anyone?

 

I always practice at the final arcade and Kakutoshinseki II, but it's tough as hell. It takes just about every trick in the book to win sometimes. They use E-TTEG almost every time they get hit, and they punish you every time you make a mistake (sometimes even with delayed strikes/delaying their best throw, etc). It took me a while before I could keep a good % there.

 

I heard that A.I in the final aracde are much better than

their real players counterpart. Everybody, let's just

forget it!

 

Making it to the final arcade and beating everyone there is very possible, just that doing it takes an extreme amount of concentration, skill, and the ability to deal with massive amounts of frustration. Losing in the fifth round is nearly unbearable sometimes, last week I almost (thank god) chucked my Evo stick across the room.....phew.

But yes, the AI fighters are "better" than the real life counterparts that they simulate. But only in a few ways. Getting a sucesful throw is very hard, as the computer "guesses" correctly when you are going to throw, and mangages to put in TTE every time. Not to mention that they know whenever that have guarenteed damage, and will never miss any combo that they start.

They way to beat them is a combination of pure skill, and cheez. If you can "cheez" them out, by all means take advantage of any situation. One thing to do is back up to the edge of an open ring, and wait till they go on the offense, and evade attack, most of the time they will either go right out of the ring, or have their back facing the ring's edge.

 

My post was a kind of joke cause I responded Blonde

one's joke in the same way. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif Blondie, I can't take

what you said seriously after I saw your flying Jackie!

Anyways, A.I is much better in Evo compared to those

in Ver.C, but A.I is just A.I no matter what. It is not

better than the real players cause it has a fixed pattern

which players can capitalize on eventually.

 

[ QUOTE ]
madagascar said:

... It is not

better than the real players cause ..........



[/ QUOTE ]

Actually there are several things that the AI does better than most humans can do in real life, it is just that the AI lacks the common sense to realize where it is in the ring among other simple things.

 

The final arcade is hard but like DRE pointed out that the CPU does things that all of us can work on doing ourselves. If the computer delays a move(epecially akira's yoho) You can DTE Dodge Attack it will beat delayed moves such as this. The last arcade will make your offense what we like to call TRICK TIGHT! meaning there are no frames to spare when flowcharting usually involving advaced movement such as Back dashing, Linneying, and Crouch Dashing Forward to avoid throws when at a disadvantage of -2 or less. It's a great way to figure out where your at with all your skills and learn to "PUNISH" different characters. Ryan Hart pointed out at VF TOPGUN that all the US players play as if we're playing from a text book. This is true, first you have to learn the standard ways to attack and punish, once those are learned the other can counter and now the unorthodoxed super fast extremely efficient play starts, "JAPANESE". You can get all Japanese on it =). First learn to punish all the moves of every character properly. I'd love to see more people getting into the Final Arcade Kumite and finding things that are getting them killed and posting about it. A lot of times people are too shy to post anything due to redicule. If you've got issues, then I'd love to help. I'm just wanting people to see and feel the light that i do =P. I would have posted about people playing people but we all know that doesn't usually happen regularly enough to warrant a meaningful post. PLAY THE LAST ARCADE ON KUMITE AND "LEARN"!!! It's the toughest I've ever seen the cpu, and it does good things for you to learn proper flow-charts and punishing techniques. DO IT!! later

PS-those of you that do play the last arcade "I know who you are". =) So don't talk back! DO it!

 

one major flaw with the computer that i find aggrivating is that, computer loves to throw 90% of the time after a throw counterable move. Of course in other peoples words - that is very textbook like. Basically saying, computer throwing game isnt random enough which is severely taking out a huge part of the game.

Playing against the computer can help, but things like what i have pointed above can lead to very bad habits in higher levels of play. Just something I wanted to point out -_-;;

Also some computer AI, such as ones for leifei, shun, or vanessa is really crappy compared to others. Players using those characters might have a slight edge over players who are used to computer variants of them in a tournament. Then again finding any consistent human competition is something to be happy about.

All in all computer play can only take you so far - the real strength lies in the human imagination.

 

Here is my second part.

Since now A.I is better, here are things that can be

learned( also I've learned) by playing the Quest mode.

1. Almost always when moves which have between
-8 to -12 disadvantage on block get blocked by A.I,
it is time for a multiple throw escape practice. It is interesting that different A.I have different preference on choosing throws.

2. When moves that leave you with -6 or above on block get blocked, it is time for ETTEG practice. A.I
goes for 2 way games in this situation.

3. When you got hit by low punch or high punch on counter, A.I goes for two way games such as throw or knee. It is time for advanced ETEG training as well as reflex training.

4. When A.I's moves get blocked, they will do ETEG(
as much as triple escape) most of time. It is time to
learn how to punish ETEG. What I do is crouch back dash shoulder ram(+) which comes out
slow enough to catch A.I doing normal evade.


Of course playing against human is the best way of

learning the game, but I am glad that we can have this

much fun playing against CPU in this game compared

to other A.I, such as one of TTT. I think A.I in VF5 will be

even better.

Cheers,

Jimmy

 

[ QUOTE ]
one major flaw with the computer that i find aggrivating is that, computer loves to throw 90% of the time after a throw counterable move.

[/ QUOTE ]

uhh...you're supposed to throw 90% of the time after blocking a throw counterable attack. the ai mixes up it's throws nicely, so breaking the best 2 won't always cut it, you gotta work on escaping chars 3rd and 4th throws in key situations and start thinking about TTE.

I think blondie's real point here is that it's now possible for everyone in NA to reach a higher level of play for tournaments and gatherings using quest mode. And he's curious as to why ppl aren't using this tool to improve themselves more. Of course human opponents are more desirable, but if more VF'ers spent more time making their games HOTTER, there's that chance of attracting more interest in VF from other ppl. Well, at least I think that's his point /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Quote:
I think blondie's real point here is that it's now possible for everyone in NA to reach a higher level of play for tournaments and gatherings using quest mode. And he's curious as to why ppl aren't using this tool to improve themselves more. Of course human opponents are more desirable, but if more VF'ers spent more time making their games HOTTER, there's that chance of attracting more interest in VF from other ppl. Well, at least I think that's his point /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

That's right. I agree with IMF and Blondie's point here.

A.I in Evo can be a great training partner( or machine).

I doubted that one can become a good player just by

playing Ver.C kumite A.I, but I think it is possible with

the Evo Quest mode. For that reason, once Evo gets

reliesed in U.S, we might be able to find new scenes

and players from area where we never expected that

to happen. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
PhoenixDth said:

Playing against the computer can help, but things like what i have pointed above can lead to very bad habits in higher levels of play. Just something I wanted to point out -_-;;

Also some computer AI, such as ones for leifei, shun, or vanessa is really crappy compared to others. Players using those characters might have a slight edge over players who are used to computer variants of them in a tournament. Then again finding any consistent human competition is something to be happy about.

All in all computer play can only take you so far - the real strength lies in the human imagination.


[/ QUOTE ]

I actually think that Pheonix is right for the most part in his post.

I most high levels of play, you don't see many players using throws after throw counterable moves, for a couple reasons. Obviously characters like LeiFei have a hard time getting a throw off, with only three directional throws + p+g throw, easy to reverse. Second of all, it is very textbook to use throws after TC moves, many players choose to go on the offensive with striking attacks, which then leads to frame advantges or mindgames, that can ultimately lead to a throw.

The part about the "bad habits" is basically the biggest flaw when fighting the AI more than human opponents. Each AI script unique to each character is the shared by the same characters, so that means that all the Vanessa AI's fight similarily, all the Lion AI's fight....you get the point.

The computer has very little in the way of mind games, lots of time you see a player CD forward at the start of a round and use a risky move (such as Kage's b+p+g). The computer is hardly good at setting up advanced rushes, or using mind games at all.

One of the biggest gripes I have with the AI script, is that there seems to be no distinguishing the significance of the fact that when the AI is or fighting against Shun, they don't focus on drink points as much as they should, a real player would.

Like face all of the LeiFei AI's in the game, and then face Heruru. Odds are you wouldn't come close to beating him once, unless you had previous experience playing against human opponents.



While I think you can learn a ton from Evolution AI, there is still the fact that they cannot offer the same strategy and mind games that a real human opponent can offer. But hey, anything is better than the Kumite AI....... /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

i'm struggling to keep 68 -70% win rate right now, but i'm honestly getting used to it, the CPU is bait with throws, they oly realy thow in guarenteed situations, or sometimes after you low P and stand.... it's pretty mechanical, but i thing alot of them just read your sig and took the advice^^ they just think wayy ahead of most people interms of attacking and defending.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Like face all of the LeiFei AI's in the game, and then face Heruru. Odds are you wouldn't come close to beating him once, unless you had previous experience playing against human opponents.


[/ QUOTE ]

...
...
... you're not goint to beat heruru no matter who you play in NA. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif But quest mode will help you train so you know the basics on how to fight each char, what to do when lei enters into a BT stance etc.....


[ QUOTE ]
I most high levels of play, you don't see many players using throws after throw counterable moves, for a couple reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a few reasons why you wouldn't see a throw everytime after a throw counterable move is blocked. #1. the player sucks. #2. spacing comes into consideration #3. the player doesn't react fast enough. #4. the player is afraid of the opponent escaping the correct throw. #5. the player is feeling totally in control of the match and gambles for a large attack. The ai won't try to throw everytime when spacing comes into consideration. I can mix in A-TE and E-TE heel kick flow charts with Kage in quest mode. The ai isn't human (no delay), and isn't afraid of you escaping the correct throw. Taking guaranteed dmg is a good thing, if the ppl that you play with aren't throwing you 90% of the time when throw is guaranteed, something's wrong. I doubt anyone interested in this discussion can QTE. Always taking your guaranteed dmg is a good thing. The only reason you should be complaining is if the AI throws you everytime and you E-TTEG to safety a lot and wish it would mix in attack more because you escape too many throws, if that's the case...nm. Otherwise, it's definitely a good thing that it makes you TE when your throw counterable moves are blocked.

If throw is guaranteed....throw! /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif ~It's a good thing, yes~ /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Well what im saying with the computer throw escaping after a throw escapeable move, is that the computer is very systematic. You missing the random factor. Sure you can say ETTEG should cover most situation, but i dont believe thats true.

In fact what i see chibita like to do against players who love ETTEG, is do one crouch dash in foward once then throw. This effectively delays the throw, rendering your ETTEG useless (unless you love to do 2 in a row for some reason), and after you wasted a ETTEG you see chibita move in, which causes most player to freeze and block high. Suckering them into the real throw.

Hereru loves to do the , dance at times after a throw counterable move, which also delays the game, and freezes opponents by putting them into another mind game.

Anyways even though I cant be the authority on what they're thinking, that is what i percieve when watching videos of them play. After all VF IS ALL ABOUT THE MIND GAMES!!

- this has been one mans opinion

 

[ QUOTE ]
PhoenixDth said:

VF IS ALL ABOUT THE MIND GAMES!

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY, and the computer has no mind (that I am aware of....). The AI has no mind like a human, who can play "mind games," hence the argument.

 

They delay because their opponents can E-TTEG. It only adds another layer to the game play, making you think about A-TE, it's true that A-TE doesn't work against the ai for all the same reasons that it works against ppl. But you're taking a much bigger risk when you delay your reaction to a throw counterble attack than if you had thrown. Something I'd like to point out is that NOBODY in NA uses E-TTEG in standard game play! If you can't E-TTEG, why should anyone (even the ai) ever delay their attacks against you? The fact that the ai throws everytime it has a guaranteed opportunity won't be hurting your game as far as competing in NA goes. Mind games are all about being good! Quest mode ai can help players in NA build good fundamentals.

Complaining that it's not the same as playing against hundreds of different highly skilled players in Japan is ridiculous to me. This is what we have to work with here, and it's pretty good.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Well what im saying with the computer throw escaping after a throw escapeable move, is that the computer is very systematic. You missing the random factor. Sure you can say ETTEG should cover most situation, but i dont believe thats true.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your good enough "there is no random factor". The computer helps you in ways that the CPU has never done before in VF4. Get to the last arcade, if you can. And practice the basics, whenever I go to gatherings there is always someone who is good but not good enough to know every character and all the basics. Once you figure this out, you find there weakness and exploit it.

[ QUOTE ]
In fact what i see chibita like to do against players who love ETTEG, is do one crouch dash in foward once then throw. This effectively delays the throw, rendering your ETTEG useless (unless you love to do 2 in a row for some reason), and after you wasted a ETTEG you see chibita move in, which causes most player to freeze and block high. Suckering them into the real throw.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's just experience, once you get them TTEGing that's them pretty much calling you on throwing after whatever move you've just done. Once Chibita does this you cycle into a lp after that move or Attack TEG. It's all option select and I personally don't think a lot of US players are familiar with all the option select sequences you can use. PRACTICE! QUEST MODE! You should never be open to throws, they are the easiest and most damaging method of offense to take. Make it almost impossible for the CPU to throw you.

 

Probably depends on who Heruru is playing...and what the situation is and how far down the opponent's life is, so on. Mind games are fine up to a point, but you don't want to surrender damage just to screw with somebody's head...if it's guaranteed right there in front of you..

 

[ QUOTE ]
Something I'd like to point out is that NOBODY in NA uses E-TTEG in standard game play!

[/ QUOTE ] Now thats a problem with NA isnt it /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif Hopefully, before VF 5 comes out, NA will reach a tournament level where ETTEG will be standard. Im sure when NA version of EVO comes out, we'll finally get a whole book of tatics we can read for once within the game. And competition will even get higher. Sure we may not have to worry about ETTEG now, but dont keep discounting NA play, because every tournament the bar gets raised higher, and you dont know whos practicing more than you do /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
If your good enough "there is no random factor".

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe there always is a random factor in any competitive game. Its something we like to call risk. Even the highest of japanese people get MC'ed all the time and when you get MC'ed, someone gambled on a moved that has higher priority than what your going to throw out next.

Jacky is a lot more of a technical character and that probably falls with your philosophy, but players who use Leifei or Shun (I dont use shun so this may not apply /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif), really lack the solid technical game and has to rely more so on distracting or confusing the opponent than most other characters.

The reason why im sure we all enjoy VF is how inventive the game can get. If we could all play by getting good to a technical point, thats what Tekken is for, combos and reflexes.

The big joke here among our friends is that how am i supposed to know what you're doing if you looks like you dont even know what you're doing. Which is very true to some effect. My philosophy is follow no flow chart, adapt to situation, but modify it with some unorthodoxy.

-again this has been one mans opinion -_-;;