character advantage/disadvantage relationship

So, I have heard from a number of Jacky players that Shun has the most inherent advantages over Jacky out of all the characters. Similarly, I have heard among forum members that certain characters have natural advantages over other characters.

What are these relationships? For instance, who has the natural advantages over Akira, Lei Fei, Wolf, and so forth? Are there characters who are naturally advantaged over a multitude of characters?

Thanks!
N

 

i don't know that there are any matchup nightmares, but...
My main is lei fei. Sarah is difficult because she starts so many of her setups with k and lei does not sabaki these from neutral position. Lion is a struggle for me every time. A 6th dan lion is like 10th dan any other character. But think of characters who might fit a whole in anothers style. kicks vs lei punch sabakis. 2handed/legged/body checks vs lei's sabakis. I would have to think aoi would be a tough matchup for brad. shun is a bad matchup for almost everyone. As can be lei fei and kage. They have good flow charts where a smart player can avoid huge disadvantages.

 

Imo, a bit drunk on a Saturday night;

Van 1p > Shun (shuts of so much)
Aoi 43p > Lei (kills BT game etc)

Then there are logical relations like a char of the likes Jeff which has knee that is -15 probably doesn't like facing chars with strong 15f punishers and decent throwgame etc or a Aoi / Van probably won't like chars with much double limbed attacks like Kage doing 44k+g in oki combo against RTE/YY happy Aoi or a Pai doing 336p straight into Van's plenthroia of sabaki's as a main threat in higher adv. Depends a lot if opponent is abare or moralist thought but many people can't switch between the two as they see fitting.

A Sarah, based on midkicks probably isn't so happy about YY stance (gtd launch vs kicks) and she hasn't got much double limbed blah blah but then again you have to consider natural tiers also. I mean, Lei/Pai/Van/Eil/Shun etc are probably strong against most chars by default. Btw I've always felt Brad vs Jacky is an uphill battle for Brad since he has problems in a pokewar and on top of that Ja's throwgame is so much better but now Brads new dmg output makes it better I guess. HW's lose a bit of their natural defence in regards of floating when facing characters with crumble combostarters that lead to bounce also.

P.S; This thread will probably go to hell quickly as it's so easy to be subjective instead of objective in viewpoints like. Really, most scenes have so little exposure that the thoughs become based upon a single player in the community. Probably like 3 players in the west who are capable of doing a good analysis and I'm not one of them but hope the reply was worth something and discussion is kept civil.

 

Thanks KiwE for that. I found your comment on logical relations very helpful! I'll keep this in mind. I'm interested in hearing other views. In order to make a helpful observation I think I need to play with other characters a lot more in depth, but I'll just say that Vanessa probably gives me the most trouble.

 

sarah vs eileen is a pretty even match. She's just tuff for eileen to deal with overall.

 

Personally I seem to have trouble with most everyone out there..
These days LOTs of characters have so many moves with evasive or pushback properties I have gotten angry about it. And then there are those with barely any.

Sarah vs Aoi is VERY tough. Huge majority of Sarahs attacks get stuffed by YY-stance. For instance Sarah's normal stance K+G is a fullcircular highkick! Why?! Why can't it be crescent which YY wouldnt eat?!

 

Aoi and her auto reversal stance eat just about everything pai has and her normal reversals negates everything else. Goh can sabaki most of her attacks as well even the recovery kicks. Mixing it up is a must against good defensive play that knows how to reverse all of Pai's attacks or sabaki all of them if need be. At the same time being too passive leaves any player wide open as well how should one handle a masterful defensive player if they know how to sabaki or reverse all of your good attacks even if you mix things ups

 

Pai has awesome tools for beating out Aoi's shit, you definitely have no grounds to complain.

 

Pai's main combo starter is double fisted, I don't see the problem with anyone's sabaki or inashi. If aoi likes to reverse, making her guess between /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and simply /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will make pai come out on top in damage.

 

Throws work well enough for me.

 

I actually like mixing up all of my rising attacks and the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif based moves to do this. Obviously /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif can't be caught easily but aoi's normal reversals can catch it so I mix up /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif if aoi is in reversing mode, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gifto counter lows if the tries to duck under a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and staggers on a counter hit. Mixing her rising attacks help too. I often fall in love with certain moves too much while I am rising from a crouch and I have to force myself to stop abusing these moves since I don't see very many good aois very often.

 

Pai also has a fast and safe HCR. And by glancing through her command list also a HDK and a MCR. So i think an Aoi player would rather fall back to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif than go for mid reversals against Pai.

I'm going to be adventurous here and guess that the same holds for a shun vs. aoi match, since he has both an MDK and a HCR.

 

Pai is one of the best characters against Aoi by far if not the best. The only thing missing is Evo swallowkick MDK stats at 13frames.

Not only counter RTE with K (hitconfirmable and safe and then you have have KP and so on) but if you really guess it you have 66kp for MASSIVE damage (79 on ch!) which is hitconfirmable if you delay it.

Then you also have all her circulars like 4k+g, k+g etc and 1k+g (safe!) hell even DM P+K. Of note is that circulars can be both high, mid and low in Pai's case which gives her a luxury as it's hard for Aoi to switch between YY and RTE against it (or sabaki's). Both high (4k+g) and low (1k+g) are safe!

On top of that secondary things like 1kk (anti reversal/YY), 66p+k CH oki (66p+k(MC)>dash(66)2p>2_6p>66pk= 72dmg vs Aoi), 1p (which automaticly fucks up DM/RTE) things and and 7k+g which is a 15f mid which can't be YY stanced when used as nitaku due to sommersault class at 30base damage (45dmg ch).

What you can't forget either, which is the cherry on top, is Pai has 64pp which RAPES elbows and punches forcing Aoi out of her comfortzone.

 

So does FL 6K "full circular"

Sarah's friend in the Aoi matchup would be, 2K+G leg slicer, 2P, FL K+G mirage step, 9K, and catch throws.

When all else fails play a stepping mixup game between every throw input with 0f, and Serpent cannon hitchecks.

You know all of this, but I'm only posting it so others that didnt know, now know. It's a tough match, like most of them.

As for other advantage/disadvantage relationship matchups with Sarah. Not going to complain to guys anymore, I think I did that enough.

 

Tricky, I gotta disagree with you man I'm sorry. 2_3P+K the shoulder move? Alone, is too good to Sarah's movelist, it goes under about 90% of her mids. Then add 46P(which goes under highs) into the mix.

IMO, I think the matchup that's closest to even, would be Sarah vs Vanessa. Vanessa can't really punish a damn thing, and Sarah is mad unsafe. The matchup is even imo, if the Sarah player can TE.

After that I think Jacky vs Sarah is close to even, they can just morally elbow each other all day and have a ball.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After that I think Jacky vs Sarah is close to even, they can just morally elbow each other all day and have a ball. </div></div>
What Elbow? and Sarah is mad unsafe? Puh-Leeze.

 

I LUL'D

 

What Elbow? and Sarah is mad unsafe? Puh-Leeze.

</div></div>

Cool man

 

dude you showed first hand how 2_3P+K can be whiped on by using all those ground scraping mid attacks (moves that go all the way to the ground as an animation) like 33K, 4P+K, P+K, 2P+K,K. A whole host of sarah's moves scrape the ground killing it's evasive properties.

It might be a mental block I have, I've always had a hard time with sarah since I started playing the game. Pai too

 

In VF4 this was incredibly true... it was almost impossible for a mediocre Aoi to lose to a Brad... part of the many reasons the story makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. That said, the match is a lot more even in VF5 from what I've seen.

I actually find wolf has a very good matchup against Aoi. They basically both want to throw, except Wolf does more damage, Aoi really has to fight to make up the difference. Jeff has a slight edge too... in that Aoi depends so much on guessing correctly a bunch, and he just has to make so many fewer correct guesses to win, but for some reason throws are much less common in that matchup, so it's not nearly as bad for the Aoi player.

I actually think Aoi has quite an edge on Akira. He seems to rely on a lot of highs/mids to keep pressure up, and she can just eat them with reversals pretty handily. That said, Akira's so hard to play, anyone good with him can usually find ways to work around the issue, so it's not that important in practice.

And last but not least... Lion seems to have the advantage against Aoi. He has a lot of really good low/mid mixup situations, which pretty much completely remove YY stance from the match. At that point, it generally becomes a lot of jabbing and elbowing back and forth, and while that's not generally considered a bad situation for Aoi to be in, Lion is a little stronger.