Character Difficulty

Discussion in 'General' started by HotSauceNelly, Jul 26, 2020.

  1. SDS_Overfiend1

    SDS_Overfiend1 Well-Known Member

    This same reason half the Vanilla 5 players disappeared. Took you a while to come
    Back didn’t it? People didn’t play FS because they didnt want to start from scratch with their main. They even switched characters and still didn’t make it. That’s for another time tho. Good to see players coming back tho.
  2. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer"

    correct on the hand issues. But I meant more so in the context of the VF buffer system. So like if I do 33 motion then want to get 6P if I don't press G there's a good chance I'll get a 2 motion during the 33 and end up getting 236P to come out instead of just 6P so you have to use G to clear the input buffer. It's a problem she has that other chars don't really deal with.
    HotSauceNelly and Dennis0201 like this.
  3. Dennis0201

    Dennis0201 Well-Known Member

    Interesting, I think this is caused by hitbox because your "stick" doesn't have that "neutral" moment after 33 buffer, instead you need to use G to clear the input. Good point out that 33 buffer does cause some trouble for certain character like Wolf because he has both 3P and 2_3P commands, but some characters also take that buffer advantage if they have 33P command for example.
    Tricky likes this.
  4. KrsJin

    KrsJin Well-Known Member

    That’s a lot of assumption. While I do miss Jacky’s 2K+G, K (lol), character and even system changes were not why I didn’t get heavy into FS at release. If anything, new things to learn was a huge draw even if some changes were head scratchers to me at the time.
    SDS_Overfiend1, Tricky and DomAug like this.
  5. HotSauceNelly

    HotSauceNelly Well-Known Member

    Ahhh....I see. That makes sense (y)
    Tricky likes this.
  6. DomAug

    DomAug spoiled brat Bronze Supporter

    do you keep hidden cameras pointed on everyone that has played FS at one time and stopped playing it? i guess everyone is a quitter but you, since you seem to know everyone's motives.
    jimi Claymore likes this.
  7. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    I don't want to sound like the devil's advocate but, IMHO, this "flow" can actually be a detriment to new players (so in a sense increasing the "difficulty" of a "truly" mastering character). Sorry for quoting a post from 2 pages ago but I felt this was a pont worth exploring. There's a TLDR version below if you'd like to skip my reasoning process.

    So, IMHO, "flow" works against the A.I. and possibly against fellow novice players, but against experienced opponents "flow" stops working and a player that heavily relied on "flow" hits a brick wall.

    Here is my experience facing random online opponents harnessing the power of "flow" from three of the characters the OP mentioned:
    Eileen players who go through the same flowcharts over and over again, only to be jabbed out of the air for 100+ damage.
    Jacky slide shufflers who get with with sidekick like a thousand times.
    Lei Fei warriors who can't stop mashing punch and then send me angry messages complaining that "lei fei has no kicks only special punches".

    Concerning the other characters mentioned by the OP:

    I find that, while novice Kage players have repeatable patterns, these concern individual strikes instead (most common one being the 66P+K+G panic button) or random jumanji spam; Kage's "flow" becomes more apparent in the hands of experienced players like @Myke ; and while Shun certainly has "flow" it requires drink management to keep up (so not really novice players - you gotta spend time int he dojo to figure out which moves add DP).

    Other characters not mentioned by the OP:

    Sarah's flamingo has its own "flow". Putting the opponent in a "whirlwind" is a phrase I have heard US players use. And Sarah's flow works for novice players, until they run into an opponent knows they character's fastest mid hitting move (pai 3P+K, Aoi 43P+K etc); then it's game over.

    Other characters to consider: Lau and Pai also have a lot of strings but they are not repeatable ad infinitum. Aoi however has strings that can be cancelled into tenchi and that's why see a bunch of Aois "on autopilot" online. She has a good "flow".

    Finally, Brad also comes to mind, with new players trying to duck and weave to maintain a non-stop barrage. However this attitude doesn't seem to last too long (possibly because his mixups from ducking and weaving are easier to interrupt?).

    I admit falling into the "flow" trap myself (that's why I feel obliged to point it out): the first character I tried to learn back in VF4evo was Lion because, well, he was fast and he could run in circles around the other character I tried first. Vanessa's jab was 14f back then, and she was generally a sluggish character, so I hit a brick wall very early; switching to Lion, learning a couple of ghetto flowcharts (PPP > 1K breakdance! 3K > meteor punch your predictable counterattack foo! evade P+K > i don't know any combos just mash PPPPPP!) got me free wins against the low level A.I.. Obviously I got destroyed the first time I played a human opponent. They gave me advice and sent me back to the dojo. The problem is I was never able to shake off that playstyle with Lion: once VF5 vanilla was out I tried Lion again and discovered that a bunch of his strings could now be cancelled (into more moves, creating a nice "flow"). So now in VF5FS I still go for the "cool looking" moves that have a nice "flow" to them e.g. punish with 3P+K > PKP into mixup instead of 44K float or after an evade I go for a > 3K side CH > PKP mixup instead of a launcher or 44P > 8P+K instead of backdashing or i keep doing 46P+KP mixups and then keep wondering how my opponent always chooses right :(

    Do bear in mind this is a cautionary tale only for mediocre players like myself; my once sparring partner @kingo apparently only picked characters that have a good "flow" (Aoi, Eileen, Sarah) but suffered none of the downsides and could play Pai or Kage with equal ease (although I think the latter was just to spite @Mister :)).

    TLDR: characters that have a good "flow" typically refers to characters with more strings than individual strikes, and a way to chain between strings. This lowers a character's initial learning curve but at the same time it can instill bad habits that must be un-learned afterwards in favor of (re)learning solid fundamentals that ultimately is the only way to win games against more experienced opponents. So, in terms of difficulty (which is what this thread is about), flow makes a character is easier to learn initially but they make the game harder in the long run.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  8. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer"

    It was a problem on joystick too. It's damn near impossible to hit 33 perfectly every time without getting a few frames of 2 or 6 just because of the microswitches. Take a look at your inputs in the dojo and you'll see the extra inputs being read.
  9. Dennis0201

    Dennis0201 Well-Known Member

    You are right about 33 is not possible to be perfect each time but the key point here is that "neutral" position (after 33) which helps to wash out whatever the previous inputs you had and turns the following 6P elbow 100% correct. The actual sequence is like 33(buffer) > 5(neutral) > 6P (elbow), not just 33 > 6P.

    Not sure if you can configure that "5" position on hitbox (which is kind of weird), besides you are pressing G already to help to clean the buffer. There are exact the same amount of inputs you can apply either with "5" or "G", and that's why I'm assuming hitbox has something restriction at this situation since hitbox input is too precise.
  10. SDS_Overfiend1

    SDS_Overfiend1 Well-Known Member

    Slow your roll Dom.
    This was fact 8 years ago. People didn't like FS because it didn't feel like VF. It was simplified and dumb down. Top tier players who reached ceilings were dropped down and had to relearn a lot of things while discarding tech that took years to develop/Learn. if it makes you feel better. I did quit. I moved on after learning the nuances of the newest system after 6 years with no one playing. I feel a lot of hostility coming from your post. Did I offended you? Are you part of the VF peace corps? I mean.. do you feel the need to want to take action DomAug?
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  11. ICHIBANin10000

    ICHIBANin10000 Well-Known Member

    Ft10 Domaug vs SDS. But hide the sharp objects. Domaug will get depressed after he gets destroyed. SDS is totally right Domaug wouldn't know anything about that because he plays on a mix-box : aka I have no skill so I need a crutch - box.

    Some characters are beginner characters like Lau, Some are advanced Aka Akira. Some are intermediate and categorized by their effective range. FS became extremely unbalanced because they focused on strikes over throws removed MTE, removed Throw clash, omitted both DM P+K and Offensive move P/K, and straight up removed some throws.

    Sega haphazardly my removed some characters reversals and gave them yet more strikes when they already had dozens. Given that it's hard for old school players to not look at FS in a negative light.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
    beanboy and SDS_Overfiend1 like this.
  12. HotSauceNelly

    HotSauceNelly Well-Known Member

    Man....I can't believe you made me read all of that! Lol! But it was worth it. "Flow" can hamper a player down the road if they don't develop their fundamentals in conjunction with the natural "Flow" that the character possesses. Some beginners need easy wins early simply for the sake of enjoyment, seeing a cool series of moves, and for their initial confidence. I personally am the opposite; I like it to be difficult early to toughen me up. I also don't mind losing early because IMO you learn far more from losses than wins. But your point is definitely legit! (y)
    Tricky likes this.
  13. SDS_Overfiend1

    SDS_Overfiend1 Well-Known Member

    Lol nah.... It's not worth it. Had to be a pot. I'm not doing this for free. Anywho. He has no idea of the work I put In on VF5 vanilla just to have it snatched away in favor of simplicity. All of us talked about this heavily on this very site. The nerfing of Jeff when he and Wolf was S-Tier in R.ver c. The one thing we agree to In Part of their physical attributes. Never mind... It's all good. You know what it is.
  14. DomAug

    DomAug spoiled brat Bronze Supporter

    my issue is that you're clearly trying to stir up shit.

    don't flatter yourself with the peace corps line, this is purely limited to my brief experience with you. Oioron and KrsJin certainly don't need (or want, for that matter) me to speak for them.

    your first interaction with me on this site was after seeing my venting about how bad i realized i was at VF games in general, not directing it at Sega/AM2 for being unfair or changing things that i was used to in older games, but for developing my own bad habits and never taking the time to correct them. it was an inward dialogue fueled mostly by my own self-esteem issues. your response was to tell me to stop whining and shut the fuck up. do you now see the irony in you putting the onus on Sega/AM2 for making one of your favorite characters worse after all "the work (you) put in on VF5 Vanilla"? how i don't know what kind of struggle you endured by learning so much about the previous games that just ceased to be in FS?

    what you said to me i could apply here: you know exactly what you have to do, so stop making excuses. you feel your time mastering the previous games was wasted with FS. you feel entitled to a more familiar VF experience because of how much time you put in to learning the features of the older games. for the record, no, it doesn't make me feel better that you "quit". i don't find any pleasure in seeing people be disappointed or sad or otherwise unhappy. but i don't have a ton of patience for people who are abrasive to others out of the blue, especially when those others are not directing anything at anyone in particular.

    that's all i got. feel free to tell me how much of a baby i am or how bad i am at this game, etc.

    sorry for derailing your thread Nelly.
    SDS_Overfiend1 likes this.
  15. SDS_Overfiend1

    SDS_Overfiend1 Well-Known Member

    Other than that how are you feeling today?
  16. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer"

    Neutral for HB is just no button press on hitbox so it's not really making that restriction. I have needed to learn a lot about how the game handles inputs because of how precise hitbox allows you to be. The game seems to be programmed assuming you're using the imprecise dpad or joystick and places a priority on certain inputs over others. For example, if you want 43 (attack) to come out you can press 4 23 and get it but if you press 4 63 you'll not get the 43(attack) input based attack to come out. However sega coded the inputs, they put a priority on qcf/qcb motions no matter how sloppy you do them within a 10 (ish)frame window. This quirk heavily restricts what moves Eileen can use while also doing movement since pressing G also stops any dashing motions.
    Dennis0201 and DomAug like this.
  17. DomAug

    DomAug spoiled brat Bronze Supporter

    I'm still alive and i don't have Coronavirus (that i know of), so i can't complain
    HotSauceNelly and SDS_Overfiend1 like this.
  18. Blitzball Champ

    Blitzball Champ Well-Known Member

    Blitzball Champ
    Personally for me, I would have to say Akira is the toughest for me mainly because most of his stuff I just flat out haven't been able to do on a stick, but have done on a controller (this is mainly for VF4Evo considering I have played with each character a bunch through Quest Mode). I understand the idea of some characters being beginner, some intermediate, and some advanced, but because of how great the training mode is in breaking down scenarios and combos. I admit that I am somewhat biased considering the fact that VF4Evo is my #1, but I would say Akira has always been difficult for me execution wise. Shun, Vanessa, and Lei-Fei would tie for 2nd hardest characters for me due to the extensive movelist involving stance switches, but I feel that they are very rewarding when you get the hang of them. Taka would be 3rd on list for me because he just feels really really slow, but hey, if Shidosha can do it, anyone else can, cause his Taka is a beast!
  19. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    If for VF6, they bring back all of the stuff, mechanics, moves, combos and throws, that were removed in VF5 FS, trust me when I say, nearly all of the VF players who left would return. People seem to forget, that the VF fanbase back then, was way much larger, than it is now. They need that motivation to come back to the game. And also, no one likes to play, a crappy nerfed down version, of their favourite character.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
  20. beanboy

    beanboy Well-Known Member

    When it comes to character difficulty, Dural is just like the corona virus. They are both difficult to deal with, and both are annoying. Best way to deal with them, is to keep at a distance, block their stupid attacks, and evade any annoying attack and immediately pummel them, with non stop attacks and heavy hitting combos.:p

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