Character Loyalty, Kage Power

Well I thought this post might be timely given all the recent angst being poured around lately. I have played Kage since I started playing VF, though I flirted with changing primary characters in the past (Lion in VF2, Wolf early in VF3). I was never serious about doing it....until FT.

After playing FT in Tokyo, Hong Kong, and Singapore, I came to the realization that while my Kage won very consistently against opponents of lesser skill, I had trouble beating those of equal or better skill. I almost never upset a highly ranked opponent in Tokyo with Kage. Further, against the best players in Hong Kong and Singapore, my Kage was frequently sub-50%. My Evo Kage, on the other hand, had a 77% win rate and I always felt I had a good chance against highly ranked opponents in Tokyo.

While my FT Kage was poor, my FT Jeffry was a monster. If I defeated any elite players on my recent Tokyo trip, it was with Jeffry. My Jeffry is around 50% with Hong Kong's and Singapore's best. In fact, I had started out with a 60% win rate with about 150 matches from Evo going into Hong Kong, and two weeks later, emerged with a 72% win rate with about 300 matches. This roughly translates to an +80% win rate in Hong Kong!

Is Kage really that strong in FT? If he is, I sure don't feel it. Despite being a Kage player all my VF life, and starting Jeffry only in VF4 (and even then, only sporadically), my Jeffry was more successful. Even my Goh was more successful than my Kage in FT against certain players. My experience is not isolated either. Danny13's Jeffry, a character he only recently picked up, is already more effective than his Kage in FT. DeLune's Wolf, Pai, and Lau are now better than his Kage in FT.

In the end, despite going through a character identity crisis of sorts, character loyalty won out. I focused on playing Kage nearly exclusively to bring him back up to my Jeffry, but it was hard work.

Isn't that interesting though? All evidence says I should switch to Jeffry, a character who perhaps suits my style better (simple moves, big attacks, linear flow), but I am sticking with my ninja. Imagine what it must be like for Japanese players with hundreds of thousands of matches with their primary character from VF1 to FT...how could they ever switch their main? For new characters like Goh and Brad, that does not bode well for tournament representation.

 

He seriously need that long range chop......

 

Hey Ice-9,

Maybe it is just the way you play Kage... I've used Jacky as my main from VF2 to FT... I began messing around with Kage a bit in Evo and then began to play him frequently... Now I have much easier times winning with him than I do with Jacky... The players here are surprised when I say Jacky is my main, because they have a much harder time against my Kage...

I think the reason is is that my defense is pretty crappy, but with Kage it is really easy to switch up the offense and fool your opponents... There are matches where I can stay on the offense almost the whole time by guessing correctly and stuff... but Jacky is a lot more straight forward, and I feel like you really have to know what you are doing with him to win against strong opponents... Like IMF told me once, everyone knows when you want to hit a 6p with him... So probably because my Kage is less predictable than my Jacky he is winning more...

Anyway there could be any number of reasons why your Kage isn't doing as good, but I personally don't think he is any weaker in FT, unless your entire game relied around his in Evo...

-Alex

 

'Anyway there could be any number of reasons why your Kage isn't doing as good, but I personally don't think he is any weaker in FT, unless your entire game relied around his in Evo...'

Exactly!

 

Hey supergolden, thanks for the comments. I find that my success with Kage is closely correlated with how much time I invest in him (which I guess shouldn't be a surprise). I pretty much had to give up playing other characters in order to get my Kage competitive at a higher level.

The irony is that for other characters, I can be quite good without needing to invest that much time. I.e. Jeffry, Jacky, Lau, etc.

As you and Danny pointed out, the changes to A1 [ was a big blow to my Kage. That move was so good in Evo that it was all Kage needed to complement his throws. It took me a while to convert Kage back to VF4-style, and now I rely on , +, and elbow more.

Don't you just love FT Jacky though? His new shuffle step options are so fun, and + has become an interesting attack to use. I see Jacky as a highly versatile character to use...someone who you rarely get brain freeze with.

 

Maybe when you play as a new character, as opposed to one you've been playing for many years, you lose some of the bad habits you had with them?

FT Jacky is fun, his new SS additions are very useful (although of course I miss the 33k cancel in the original version)...

But Kage is loaded with options... It is really easy to put your opponent in a position they have never been in before, and therefore they may not be as likely to be able to defend against your attacks... For whatever reasons, anyway, I have an easier time putting the hurt on with Kage than Jacky...

-Alex

 

i dont know, i dont think this has anything to do with the character itself.

imo. using the logic of "2 kages in the final of otenami means kage is still strong in ft" would be the same logic as "im not doing so well with kage in FT therefore he feels weaker".

it has no real scale of facts to commit a positive desicion. if you wanted to check something like "is kage stronger or weaker in ft", i reckon you could only measure it through the stats on paper. then get an overall view. if he's different, he's just different.

sounds alittle too "note-book-VF" but, i think it's the fairest way.

 

I totally agree with the first part of your post...i.e. on the logic of results as an indication of Kage's strength. (This was the original intention behind the post). I think what it boils down to is a person's style and how it fits with characters.

I stick with Kage quite frankly for aesthetic, shallow reasons, but reasons nonetheless powerful. He's a ninja, I've been playing him a long time, and those are enough for me! In truth, my natual style is probably simple, straightforward attacks that are easy to understand and yomi. So, Jacky instead of Sarah. Jeffry instead of Wolf. Lau instead of Pai. Akira instead of Goh (though I have trouble with Akira's execution...no problems with theory). OS Vanessa instead of DS Vanessa. Etc.

supergolden, your natural style may be the opposite to mine! I also agree with your habits point. So true. One way to combat this that I recently discovered is to rotate two characters that are complete opposites. If you rotate Jacky and Lau, you may still develop the bad habit of always following up after the elbow. However, if you have, say, Jacky and Wolf, you're forced to look at how your attacks hit more often (or opportunities to throw instead of continuously attacking).

 

[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:

i dont know, i dont think this has anything to do with the character itself.

imo. using the logic of "2 kages in the final of otenami means kage is still strong in ft" would be the same logic as "im not doing so well with kage in FT therefore he feels weaker".


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, but you're wrong. Kage is VERY strong in FT, mainly because of that chop move. Not risky, easy damage.

I play in quite a few arcades in the shinjuku area, and I see this situation many times. I'll play someone's Jeffery, Jacky, whatever. They'll have a 60-65% win rating. Mind you, these are typical players, not highly ranked. I might lose, but most of the time I'll beat them. Then, after you beat them, they'll challenge again, but this time, they'll either pull out their Lau card or their Kage card. This card always seems to have at least 75% wins, usually about 80-5%.

Lau and Kage are very very strong in FT, because they are frankly less risky to use than someone like Wolf or Shun. Wolf can get better damage, but many of these two characters options at certain frames are so strong compared to other characters, even if the damage is weaker than someone like Wolf.

I know that Shang didn't really argue his point in a nice way, but a lot of the points he was making were correct. I've seen this first hand, playing FT. I'm no expert, but it says something when most people in an international tournament are one character or another. Pencil and Paper VF is bullshit, and you can't determine anyone's strengths or weaknesses based on it. I'll stand by that.

But all this doesn't mean that people are playing Kage or Lau are stupid and shouldn't pick those characters. Although it pisses me off when I see people do what they did above(especially when they play an extremely boring game), it's their choice. I think character loyalty is a good thing really... =) I've only played Vanessa for 2 or 3 years and I'm happy that I stuck with her. Likewise, people who enjoy using Kage or whoever, should stick with them. Recognize, however, that the game is not perfect. High level players in Japan know that Kage and Lau are strong. It's not like they are going 'it's perfectly balanced'. They know it's not. But the game is more balanced than any other 3D fighting game out there (in my opinion). So at least we have that to be thankful for.

 

Anybody who says that Jacky is powerful in FT needs to look at this objectively i.e frame stats.

ALL of his main moves in evo were nerfed in FT. doesnt float on yellow counter anymore, is now elblow counterable instead of just counterable. beat knuckle doesnt float on normal hit anymore, combos now do less dmg, is now -6 instead of -3, etc etc etc... And what did he gain in FT? A couple of weaksauce SS moves that are near useless, eg, SS is just another version of , in fact leaves Jacky at -6 while is -5. lol? What all this means is that the typically Jacky player is now forced to use only a few moves, making him even more predictable.

I'll just say that other than Brad (who was incredibly weak in evo), Kage was one of the least nerfed char in FT. In fact, he is actually stronger in FT if you have access to his long chop change move.

 

gawd this thread topic seems like something thats out of dr katz

"am i just incompetant, or is it kage ?"

"video game" character loyalty?
kage incompetant?
can i post this after shang got banned?


WTF

 

Hmm, if I were to say that I understand Kage better than 99% of the people on this board, would that be a stretch?

I think Kage is very tough to play against, because it's so easy to play him. People complain about Kage because he was so successful in OT4. I understand this. But I also think the reasons brought up are piss poor. is a fantastic move, no doubt, but it's not even close to being abusable. It does not have much recovery risk, but people forget about execution risk. Against players who understand RN, Kage players must be careful in how they use this attack.

I do think Kage should be weakened. I have never denied this (see other threads). I was discussing with Danny the other day how I was never worried to see many Laus, Jackys, Akiras, and Kages making tournaments because it is a reflection of their popularity. However, what did worry me was that Akira switched with Kage in representation in OT4. Before, in VF4 and Evo, Akira had the highest representation, but all of a sudden in OT4 Kage had the most. I assume the popularity of these two established characters did not suddenly change, and can only attribute this change to Akira's weakening and Kage's strengthening.

Now WHY is Kage better? It's not as endlessly belabored, because this move got worse in FT. Two things:

1) A2 long chop. AM2 really messed up on this move by not only failing to balance it with A1, but also because many of the strengths Kage gained in FT were supposed to compensate for a weakened . With a longer range and mC float, A2 is NOT weakened. I would probably take A2 over the Evo upper.

2) DP-PPK inflicts ridiculous damage, especially on counter. Before FT, Kage could only take big damage by TFT and other minor stuff (sidekick reversal, +, etc.), which are easily minimized. This was always his Achilles Heel. Akira, Wolf, or Jeffry needed only three or four correct guesses to win, but Kage frequently needed six or seven. Against really good opponents, Kage basically had to be smarter about yomi. In FT, this Achilles Heel was removed. Sure, it's not as though you see a lot of DP-PPK in clips, but the mere threat of it is enough to make Kage very, very dangerous.

How do we make Kage more "fair?" Simple.

1) No mC float with A2, or no combo follow-ups on mC float. This will make the trade-off between A1 and A2 of damage potential vs. range.

2) Reduce the damage on DP-PPK, and/or cap the damage so that on HC it doesn't take more than...say, 70 points (versus current ~88 points), or a 5 point premium against the DPK. The choices for Kage would then be low damage and great recovery in A1/A2, high damage but bad recovery in the DP-PPK, or medium damage and slow execution in . But he at least won't be able to nitaku 2/5 damage with TFT/DP-PPK. This should remain Jeffry/Wolf's domain.

With those changes, Kage will be fine.

Finally, I don't know Lau or Jacky to that much depth, but they also feel fine to me in FT. Not overpowered, certainly not underpowered.


P.S. PhoenixDth. I'm sorry, but your post was barely better than useless. Shang's problem was that his theories were big on language and short on analysis. Repeating that language brainlessly doesn't help.

 

im sorry but its really really hard trying to be useful to respond to something like

"video game character loyalty"

i do think the topic is absurd and
i do think this thread would not have come to see light if shang was around
yes shang is a double edged sword, but this thread exist to only justify your id

stupid topics create stupid posts

 

[ QUOTE ]
im sorry but its really really hard trying to be useful to respond to something like

[/ QUOTE ]

Then don't, it's that simple. Your assertions are right, but so what? Your post was designed to break my id and strengthen yours. It's all the same.

If you want to take the higher road, post something useful.

 

*deleted*

Shang, don't use my account for your moronic flaming activities. Retard.

 

glad you admitted it was an id issue

Maybe you can consider that it makes some people sick using a forum to justify their ego.

Consider this
http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=114818&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
match 1 - im too nervous with kage so i used jeffry to beat mr beat tribe
match 2 - Look at my jeff winning before the video got cut off
match 3 - Look at me I can beat HAOH sarah, (so i can give him a cocky thumbs down)

I woudlnt mind just watching the clips, but all that self gratuitous comments within the vids and within that thread completely changed my opinion of you as a sore loser and cocky winner.

So when i read this thread about Character Loyalty and your recent comment. This is how i read it.
"My jeffry kicks ass, but my kage sucks. People tell me kage is top tier . . . Do I just suck ? Let me ask vfdc in an abstruse manner, and put down people for not taking the high road if they figure it out."

Im sorry i can never achieve your high road of always pointing thumbs down at people. Again i find your thread pretty repulsive. Doesnt your VF theory of finite skill tell you, that you shouldnt be playing other characters anyways.

 

I apologize, I was talking about the A2 chop... I don't know how to play Kage myself, but I have seen a lot of matches. This is the one. Sorry for the confusion!

 

What can I say? People conclude what they want to conclude. I think you totally misconstrued what I wrote and my behaviour, and you think you know me. Either way, both outcomes are sad.

 

Honestly Jeff, I really don't see any point in starting this thread at all, cos at the end of the day, you already know the answer even before you post the thread. Afterall, you understand Kage very well and you know that you depended on this Evo uppercut alot, and you know that his old vf4 chop was what you really needed.

So, why start a thread that either get people to tell you that you haven't Adjust to FT Kage OR that Kage is top tier so you lose is becos you Suck?

Anyway, going to Japan in January should open our eyes more to FT Kage. So quit whining! /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

danny you are my hero !! /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif