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Character Moves Project

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by akai, Apr 9, 2009.

  1. Jide

    Jide The Super Shinobi Silver Supporter

    PSN:
    Blatant
    Hi Akai,
    Is it possible I could get that chart in excel format? :p
     
  2. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Jide, yeah I can send you the excel file (2007 or compatible mode). Just PM your email address to me.
     
  3. InstantOverhead

    InstantOverhead Well-Known Member

    This is how Blizzard balanced Warcraft III and Starcraft, they assigned values to every variable imaginable, and then tried to make the races as unique as possible while simultaneously maintaining balance. There are other factors that didn't come into consideration though until SC had been competitive for years, like map size, mineral placement, spawn locations, and even some insanely tiny details that would eventually throw off the initial values requiring further balance changes and patches. While in SC/WC Blizzard can only patch units, they can't patch maps, that is left up to the gaming leagues and circuits. Sega however has full control over the entire balancing system of VF so they can change maps (aka ring types).

    With ring types, you have some characters that have a tremendous advantage, such a Kage using TFT to ring out opponents on open or low-wall stages. Well with VF5R we've seen stages that shift wall types between rounds, not allowing a character with better position control like Kage, to be allowed that advantage across every round. So opening rounds might be open ring, but the alternating rounds have a full cage over the ring. It's a small example of how Sega is looking to balance the ring types as well. This happened in VF4 to 4EVO as well by having some stages have walls with open corners (at least I think, though it might have been for aesthetics and not balance instead).

    Nevertheless, whatever formula or method Sega does to initially balance, and then re-balance the VF games, is certainly working.
     
  4. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    akai, I truly appreciate the amount of work involved with something like this. Thanks for your efforts.
     
  5. Leonard_McCoy

    Leonard_McCoy Well-Known Member

    As much as I appreciate any effort to unveil VF gameplay elements, I don't see any value for learning from this information of your project <u>yet</u>.

    The problem with capturing data of possible routes & choices a player can take in a particular situation is that that data is massive in VF5 - especially with the ability to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif-cancel, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif-string, delay, etc.

    Looking forward to seeing more of your project, though. If you need help, give the community a precise shout how we can help!
     
  6. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    You are right, the data is massive, but is it possible to organize the massive amount of data in a manageable way, without simplifying it too much or making it more complex than it actually is? I think so. Also, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif-cancels, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif-strings, delays...not something one should worry about unless someone commits to doing a move with those options, right?

    I don't expect anyone to get much from what has been posted so far. It mostly set things up for the next update. As I have already admitted, it could end up being a complete failure and have no value. But since the Dojo forums is not too active, might as well try and see if the project would be a nice addition to VFDC.

    As for how the community can help, I will elaborate when things become more concrete (next update, maybe).
     
  7. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    XBL:
    erdraug
    Good move spliting vane's frames into two threads akai /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbs_up.gif

    I have a question: sometimes moves share the same execution speed. Do you have any criteria to sort said moves that share the same execution speed?

    I'm asking because I was thinking that moves with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif inputs could be sorted last (inside each speed threshold) to represent 1-frame delay.
     
  8. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    If two attacks have the same execution speed, I used damage as the next criteria in sorting the moves. Maybe I should put moves with dash inputs last...

    If anybody have a preference on organization, I am open to suggestions.

    Only a minor update to set things up again. If you are really curious on what the heck I am planning, click on the spoiler for the long-winded email I sent to Myke last year that go into details of the project. It is very long...so those that don't want to read it just wait for the major update, hopefully in the coming weeks.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Warning, Spoiler: <input type="button" class="form-button" value="Show" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = '';this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Hide'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = 'none'; this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Show'; }" /></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div style="display: none;">To Myke:

    This is a lengthy write-up, as I would like to convince you the positive features of the proposed addendum to VFDC outweighs the negatives.

    [​IMG]

    <u>CURRENT FEATURES OF VFDC</u>
    First, an overview of the main contents currently available on VFDC and what I think is lacking about those sections.

    1) Command Lists – the black book translated frame data with VFDC updates/revisions. This section of VFDC provides the standard move list, relatively easy to print format, and the useful sorting feature. Negative—not much negative with the current command lists. The organization of the move list could be altered to be more intuitive and comprehensive (see flow charts).

    2) Wiki Sections — where Wiki authors can write up more detailed, organized VF information. The organization makes it a wonderful general VF reference or encyclopedia for those that do not look at the forum boards on a regular basis. The format also makes it relatively print friendly. Negative—this section is highly dependent on selected Wiki authors time and effort (for example, I have not contributed to the wiki for a while now, doing other things. In addition, there are certain parts of the wiki I don’t feel comfortable working on). At the moment, there are certain sections lacking in content . With time, those sections most likely will be filled out;

    3) Forum Boards — where the VF community can freely discuss about the game, gatherings, etc. Negative—the freedom to post anything in the forums, unfortunately, also lead to a lot of noise and makes it difficult to find certain topics of interest if you do not look at the forums on a daily basis.

    <u>PROPOSED ADDENDUM TO VFDC</u>
    To me, the three listed contents above are great features of VFDC, but lacks “interaction”—they are relatively independent of each other. This brings to what I am proposing as an additional feature to VFDC—“Flow Charts” and “Topics”—in what I hope would be an “interactive” way of combining certain positive aspects of the three current features on VFDC.

    1) Flow Charts — this section would basically be the alternate command lists in what I hope would be an intuitive/interactive way to look at a character’s move list. A very rough example of a “Flow Chart” is attached as an excel file. Organization of the flow chart is prioritized by –
    a) the situation it can be used
    b) action property – high strike, mid strike, low strike, opponent defense dependent moves, opponent attack dependent moves, opponent independent moves.
    c) speed of the move
    d) strength of the move
    Links to and from the topics. For example, Pai’s /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif to Bokutai. Clicking on Bokutai would bring you to the Bokutai section of the Flow Chart or the Topics section of Bokutai. Negative — not print friendly. Designed mainly for computer use. Does not have frame data or other information immediately available.

    2) Topics — links to and from the flow charts. This is where the community as a whole can contribute. Basically Topics are single forum topics for each move. The first two posts are reserved to the moderators. The first post is the “Facts” post of the move providing summary of all information that is purely factual, for better or worse. The second post is “Applications” post for a “frequently asked questions section” and suggestive information. Anyone can post in the topics, asking question or discussion specific to the move, application of the move or dealing against the move. Unlike the regular forum boards, these topics will be heavily moderated to keep these topics from being cluttered in the long run. Negative — Similar to the wiki it depends on the VFDC community to be contributing. However, the advantage is that the Topics are already pre-organized allowing the whole community to contribute rather than a select few wiki authors. This also may alleviate some of the redundant threads in the Forum Boards. The Topics section can also be the backbone to complete the Wiki sections.

    SUMMARY / OUTLOOK
    I am not trying to replace the features currently available on VFDC, but to add new features that can flesh out VFDC. Note, we are all busy people and this email is not an attempt of me asking you or others to take the time to help get the project up and running. What I will be doing for my own purpose is the flow charts first, then the “facts post” for each topic.

    The main negatives about the proposed feature is 1) the time required to actually get the core of the Flow Charts and Topics completed, and 2) time required to actually maintain/update it. No estimated time of completing the core of the flow charts and topics, at the moment. Ultimately, this could be a prelude for VF5:R(of course this is assuming the version will be released to consoles outside of Japan).

    If this is something you would like to implement into VFDC, great, let me know what I should have to modify, so that It can be adapted for website use. I have no experience on making web pages or how much work it will take to set it up. If this is something you don’t think is suited for VFDC, that is fine with me also. But, if you don’t mind me asking once in a while about formatting once in a while ie, how to get the command input images to replace text code we use? Or if this spurns a new/different way of improving VFDC, I am up to hearing about it (for example, don’t like the flow charts, but like the topics idea…integrate it to the current command lists…).

    If you have questions on what the project actually is, please ask. Hope this was not a complete waste of your time and thanks for reading this,

    - Akai
    </div></div></div>

    ...if you actually did read the letter: instead of making something entirely new now, I am trying to incorporate the ideas into the Dojo forums and Wiki.
     
  9. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    I have to confess, I didn't read the entire email... just skimmed thru it.

    I've been re-thinking flow charts myself a lot lately... I think this is a move in the right direction in terms of discussing the game. It's primarily offense, but knowing what your opponent's options and likely follow-up attacks will be will improve your defense too.

    I know relatively little about all the options available to many of the characters other than Sarah and maybe Wolf and Jeff. Common offensive flow charts would help people like me that are too lazy to actually spend some time with each character. I think I better understand Lei because I can bounce questions off VFnumbers, but Brad and Shun can be extremely frustrating for me.
     
  10. tonyfamilia

    tonyfamilia Well-Known Member

    Thanks for all this great info, Akai.
     
  11. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Boy, have time passed. Hopefully I will be less busy in the coming weeks to put some additional stuff/tidbits onto the website.
     
  12. EfreeteG

    EfreeteG Well-Known Member

    Thank you very much Akai! This info is very useful for understanding the whole system of each char and his potencial.
    To understand how one should do a reversal, fuzzy guard and etc.
    p.s Great and useful project indeed=)))
    _____________________________________________

    Wanna play on the next level etc. Kage 4ever=)
     
  13. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    I need some opinion on viewing images on this website.

    Below are images taken at different parameters. I would like to know what image size (50% or 25%) and quality (high/medium/low) do you prefer to view or have on the website. Also take into consideration of download time of images (smaller image size/lower quality = faster loading).

    At the moment, for the forum pages, the "4 frame image" at 50% is too large. For the wiki, it fits (at least on a widescreen monitor). There appears to be very little differences between high/medium/low image quality. Seems only noticeable when there is a strong area of contrast (black Dural getting hit with the jab).

    Any suggestions on a different format of the images would be welcomed and appreciated. Thanks.

    50% image size/high quality/2 frames
    [​IMG]
    50% image size/medium quality/2 frames
    [​IMG]
    50% image size/low quality/2 frames
    [​IMG]

    25% image size /high quality/2 frames
    [​IMG]
    25% image size/medium quality/2 frames
    [​IMG]
    25% image size/low quality/2 frames
    [​IMG]

    50% image size /high quality/4 frames
    [​IMG]
    50% image size/medium quality/4 frames
    [​IMG]
    50% image size/low quality/4 frames
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Feck

    Feck Well-Known Member Content Manager Akira

    I vote this one, not much difference between this and the low quality version. Low quality one should be fine [​IMG]
     
  15. MarlyJay

    MarlyJay Moderator - 9K'ing for justice. Staff Member Gold Supporter

    PSN:
    MarlyJay
    XBL:
    MarlyJay
    All of the low qual stuff still looks fine, so i'd go with those. I myself prefer the smaller pics. You can still see what's happening, but can fit more pictures on a screen so it's easier to compare stuff.
     
  16. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    So you actually prefer to have all the images displayed on the same page? My plan was to normally have one or a couple of images at most to be displayed on a page. Would having a downloadable PDF of all the images be of interest?

    Nothing is set in stone, so any comments or suggestions are appreciated. But I want to have a good idea of what would be the most useful/intuitive for others before I go formatting all the images for the web. Thanks again.
     
  17. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    My preference is the 25%/low quality image setting.

    Use a single image/frame for the majority of moves, and only a sequence (2 or 3 max) of images for the longer animating ones.

    The VF5 White Book could be used as a reference. Refer to these sample scans:
    Jacky (1)
    Jacky (2)
     
  18. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Okay, reduced size, low quality, and 3 frames(images) max per each move.

    Second thing, I would like some opinions on: some moves have longer/dramatic animation (compared to a straight jab or kick) that still images (at least to me) are unable to capture. Does having a drawn line/arrow help visualize the move in motion (top example, first image frame) or do you found it not necessary or even more of a distraction than without additional graphic (bottom example, first image frame)?


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Ash_Kaiser

    Ash_Kaiser Marly you no good jabroni I make you humble... Bronze Supporter

    To me, the arrow looks more distracting than helpful.
     
  20. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Good! Less work on my part if it is more of a distraction.
     

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