Community Tier Chart

Hi VFDCers !

Since I like numbers and I was bored at work I came up with the idea of creating a chart showing different aspects that make a character strong or not in FS.

The idea is to identify objective categories that define a good character in FS, then give a mark to each character from 0 (weakest) to 5 (strongest) or even 6 if you think a char is off the chart.

So I came up with the following chart:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq4G2cgfZ2JwdC1id3FEVDdvVVBxZ1NYV3o3X2NkNmc

Here are the catgories I came up with:

Weight
Throws
Strings (mixups)
Mids
Lows
Standing Punish
Low Punish
RO potential
Anti Yutori
Anti Evade
Zoning/Range
Defense
Wall Game

Each category is explained in tooltip.

I'd like to have your opinions on these categories, do they make sense for you, do you have other ones etc.
I'm hesitating to put weight on each category to show that some are more important than others.

I've begun filling the chart with my own vision, trying to stay objective
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq4G2cgfZ2JwdHBFeXJhNmlGTnBjSWhQQnktNWwwU2c

I used notes/tooltip as most as I could to explain my choices.

I'm a bit clueless about some char that I don't know very well like Jacky, Wolf, Blaze or Sarah so any input by some of you guys is welcome. I hope It can create some interessting discussions.
It would be fun if some of you would fill up their own chart to make their own tier list.

UPDATE: Community Tier Chart (WIP):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq4G2cgfZ2JwdGg0YmNGc1dBWTlNVmdRU1ZZcTZUbkE

 

"Theorical" LOL.

Anyway, I started this idea but never followed up on it. I'd be happy to contribute to this, though.

Brad

Weight - 3

Middleweight character. Decent damage is possible on him, but not extreme as with the lightweights.

Throws - 3

Throw game is nothing too special, including his wall throw. Strongest throw does marginally better than average damage, but requires a 66 input, so will likely be 11 frames at the fastest. His Neck Catch from Ducking cannot be escaped, and places the opponent into a santaku situation. The forward throw from Neck Catch does decent damage, plus gives massive wall combos. Back throw does nice damage too, plus creates some nice mixups that can lead to even more damage. It also can lead to high damage wall combos.

Strings (mixups) - 4

Brad has gained some very easy nitaku options leading to big damage in Final Showdown, especially from Ducking. He is also pretty safe when these are guarded.

Mids - 4

Brad has some very strong, safe mids in this game. These can also grant Brad the opportunity to enter into his stances, and some will launch the opponent.

Lows - 3

2K+G appears to be the fastest, most damaging low full circular in the game (19 frames; 24 damage). This forces the opponent to used 2/8 66 2G at times, since 2/8 33G is too slow when they are -7 or lower (I think). You also cannot react to the execution speed of the attack. 1K+G is a long range equivalent that has it's uses to play a ranged game, such as hitting Shun when he's on the ground without getting too close to him. 1P tracks to Brad's stomach, crouches him under highs, and launches on counter hit. Being -15 on guard isn't too bad, either. Not sure if I'd give Brad a 2 or a 3 for his lows.

Standing Punish -5

Brad probably has the best punishment in the game. PK at +12, 6P+K at +14, and 6K+G at +17. The latter two launch for very good damage.

Low Punish -5

Brad also probably has the best overall punishment for lows. 6PK at +14, 2P+K6P at +16, and 6K+G at +17. The latter two are very damaging launchers.

RO potential - 3

Nothing too special, but moves like 46P+K and his Neck Catch throws can push the opponent away from Brad pretty far. I'd say that he's maybe about average.

Anti Yutori - 4

Brad doesn't have any lows that knockdown on normal hit, but he has his throws and Neck Catch to break down turtles. Sway Back also has a guard break, if the opponent is slow to react.

Anti Evade - 5 (EDITED)

Evading towards Brad's front is scary. 6_K grants damaging combos, as does 1P. 4PK is his best tracking move to his back, which can lead into a stance mixup. 6_K and 4P also are fast enough to beat evade cancels. Brad also has full circulars at every hit level, throws, and his Neck Catch.

Zoning/Range - 4

P+K series offers a nice way to close the distance while making the opponent afraid to interrupt. Brad also has some nice keep away moves such as 66K, 3P+KP, and 1K+G. Notably, he lacks a backdash launcher, but Sway Back K can sometimes fill this role.

Defense - 2

Brad lacks sabaki and inashi-type moves to get him out of sticky situations. 4P+K, which executes in 12 frames and launches, can keep the opponent honest at times, however.

Wall Game - 4

His wall combos aren't the most damaging, but they still hurt. His mids and throws are also scary considering that his low full circular and long range kick cause a wall stun granting him a free 6P+K into a launch. So while Brad's combo damage isn't the best, he has some nice opportunities.

This was just off the top of my head for the categories you mentioned. I would also add:

Side Pressure - 4

Counter hit 4K6 Ducking P+KP is guaranteed on a side hit, granting a high damage combo. He also has his Neck Catch that can't be escaped, giving Brad a 1/3 chance of landing a throw from there.

Okizeme - 5

P+K+G catches rising kicks and grants Brad a free 6P+K into a combo. 9P+K beats low attempts and grants a free 9K. Ducking K+G also beats lows for a big damage combo, while Ducking P+G defeats high guards and evades. Slipping gives Brad some very nice options as well. Slipping K+G can track to either direction Brad chooses, is +5 on guard, and grants a free PK on counter hit. Slipping K is mid and launches on normal hit. He can also decide to cancel Slipping and use a throw. Sway Back K, used at the right distance, can avoid rising mid and low kicks, and then launch. 66K and 2K+G are also good against opponents who like to evade after standing.

 

Interesting post !

Giving numbers seems easier than to decide globally/empirically of a tier list ^^ and this can give us a clearer view of the characters weaknesses and strengths.

I'm also looking forward for some good discussion about that (and for all the trolling and drama too ^^).

About the ability of pressure of the sideturned game I don't really know the MUs enough(I know that kokei of Lau can be some pain) but maybe defensively it can be always a 1/3 choice for every char ?

I give my opinion about Goh for some categories(to be edited, still learning the bad guy ^^).


Strings (mixups) :

2 ( definitely not his strong point):
He only has a three hit string 46P+K P (P/6P/P+G) the first two are negative on hit, the only mix up is to guess right a 2P for a sabaki or backdash after 46P+K.
46P+K PP seems to be a natural combo on Taka (can someone confirm that ? It would be great beeing a force crouch and +7 ^^ !)
edit: he also have his BT game of course ^^

Mids :

4 :3P and K good range, 66P semi/side turned game on hit, 33P 4K P+G for whiff punish, 3K and 6 K beeing big starters on CH.

Lows :

3 : 43P (ducks under highs, good range), 2/8K+G (advantage when hit), 3K+G semi CH hit throw, 1K(semi) and 1K+G( hit advantage too) wallgame.

Standing Punish:

3 : PK BT game, 46P, 4K P+G

Low Punish:

4 : 2_3 P+K(-16), 4K P+G (-17),-15 low throws not guaranteed but a 1/3 choice is still good enough.

RO potential:

3.5 : Aside from his launchers like anybody else, he has the 6P+K which pushes on block too, when he is back to the edge his 4P+G and P+G throws, throws from Tsukami, 46P+K string after a successful 46P.

Anti Yutori:

3.5 : Depending on the advantage and positioning: 4 and 6 throws both a threat, 236 P+K guard break, 66K+G P+G being my fav (trying sometimes his 3K+G, hit throw if CH).

Anti Evade:

3.5 : 2 semis 3K+G and 66P (low and mid(side turned for the mid),opposite evade), K+G full circular (but high)side turned game, 2_8K+G (choosing the direction is useful,plus you're at +4)


Zoning/Range:

3.5 : To keep the distance his k is good, Goh's not moving forward, 6P+K pushes the opponent even on block.
On the opposite if Goh wants to close the distance 6P+K+G (the roll) can be useful as it's going under highs.
9K+G is good too, plus frames on block and BT game.

his range with 3K and 4K can be surprisingly good (for him ^^).

Defense:

4 : nearly all kind of sabakis (guaranted damage on a predicted 2P is the best of the cast even with a late sabaki:4K P+G)

Wall Game:

2.5 : damages are just average (he's no Lion nor Akira...), though his opportunities are not that bad : K, 6P+K for the mid ones (and his launchers of course).
3 lows : 3K+G semi, good range, 1K semi (opponent must be closer to the wall) if you dont expect your opponent to step 1 K+G is good too (plus frames on hit).

 

Updated my first post. Is this what is wanted?

Also, I think that a scale of 1-5 is perfect. Please, no decimals.

 

I'll give my scrubby opinion on Jacky, though I'm sure someone else could offer better.

Weight
4/5. He's one of the heaviest, but not sumo.

Throws
3/5. I'd say slightly better than average. His backwards direction is fast and keeps a high pace, his forward (if not tech-rolled) and neutral directions allow for guaranteed pounces.

Strings
5/5. Everything he has strings together. PP into 6P is just stupidly spammable.

Mix-ups
5/5. With the exception of a 'knockdown on normal hit' low strike, he has everything. The aforementioned PP, 4P thing, just 4P on its own, 1P (the low-backfist) which has a canned follow-up or can be cancelled into back-slide; he has a regular launcher, a 'safe but only works on counter hit' launcher, a 'bit faster than normal, but needs to be hit-checked' launcher, a 'stupidly massive range heel drop' launcher etc etc. Predictability is not something from which Jacky suffers.

Mids
5/5. Arguably the best elbow in the game, a massive range 15 frame kick, all the previously mentioned launchers, and a full-circular mid that knocks down on any hit. Yeah, mids are good.

Lows
2/5. I'd say this is his weakest area. The only lows worth mentioning are the low-backfist, the low-high combo from back-slide, and possibly the 1K sweep that only knocks down on counter (can cause wall-staggers from certain situations, I've heard). Low backfist is good as a poke, but it's nothing really to fear like, say, Pai's 2KK or Shun's combo of a similar nature - Jacky's does minimal damage, and is more of a 'free lil' bit of damage whilst I set-up for an attack string'. The back-slide 2KK is good, since it combos on any hit, but since it comes from back-slide, it can only be used in certain situations.

Standing Punish
4/5. I don't know much about other people's ability to punish, but Jacky's seems up there. he has the standard PK, and with two frames more, he gets the 3PPP, which leads to a guaranteed heavy pounce if it isn't tech-rolled (leading either to free damage or a better rising game). He also has a standard floater for those uber-punishable moves, and the Iaigeri for +15 situations.

Low Punish
3/5. Again, I don't know other's potential to punish, but Jacky's seems about average. He has the usual elbow sword for most things, and at higher frame-advantages, he can use Kiss of the Dragon (or whatever it's called now - the hit-throw thing). Doesn't have low-throws or any massive combo-starters that work on a crouched opponent (unless you count the heel drop, but I'm not sure there are any 'heel drop counterable' moves that recover low).

RO potential
2/5. His combos are average, maybe slightly less so, when considering travel distance. He can modify them for extra range, but characters like Eileen, Kage, Goh, Lau, etc can all travel halfway across the map, bouncing you along the floor all the while. His throws are also really poor for ring-out potential, since none of them really have any distance, and the side-swapping ones all work an angle that, when it works it's great, but usually it's a lot harder to work in than those that are straight swaps.

Anti Yutori - don't know what this is, sorry.

Anti Evade
5/5. Can't really get much better than a full-circular mid that knocks down on any hit. Also has a full-circular high that causes side-turned (and has canned follow-up that I've been told is guaranteed to land if the first kick is high, but only in closed stance) for more pressure, as well as a couple of mediocre half-circulars. Never gonna find evading to be a problem with Jacky.

Zoning/Range
4/5. I'm torn on this, since, personally, I feel weak at range, but people I play say Jacky is formidable, and the moves do seem to be there, so maybe it's a problem with me, rather than the character. He has the 15 frame linear mid that has a lot of range and knocks down on any hit - it's explosive and can catch people dancing with evading crouch-dashes and such. He has the heel drop for the massive range, and it's safe and combos on any hit. The spinning backfist (4P), whilst high, is good for closing the gap, since it's fairly quick, totally safe on guard, and does have follow-ups to dissuade a counter-attack.

Defense
1/5. Doesn't really have anything in this department. No sabaki's/reversals/evasive properties, other than Pak Sao and that weird reversal from back-slide.

Wall Game
5/5. Can get nonsense damage in the right situation, and can usually get a decent chunk under less optimal circumstances. Largely requires the use of Iaigeri, though you can still get 100ish points without it. A lot of his attacks cause wall collisions, so he can often tack-on an extra hit from things like 6PK or 66K etc.


Just my perspective, feel free to disagree/disregard.

 

Okay to be honest, I dont think this is going to be of much help, but its still fun to make a writeup of ones character, so here goes:

Jean

Weight:
If brad is a 3, hes probably a 3.5 or 4.
Just heavy enough to make him drop out of some combos that work on middle weights, or at least make them stance dependant. Very annoying to remember, but to be honest, it hardly influences the damage dealt to him in comparison to midweights. In my oppinion this shouldnt factor much into his placement.

Throws:
3/5. Damage somewhere around average with 60 in forward direction and 50 back (neutral 40). No complicated commands, so no chance to miss anything. A point thats worth noting is the good positioning though. From every throw, except the neutral throw you get access to an oki trap which is: , +. Evading a high and low wakeup kick(delay the attack after a roll into wakeup kick), leading into a combo doing around 80 damage on everyone except taka.
The neutral throw leads to a straight rising kick, which is easily evadable and lets you punish(i think its even launcher punishable).

Strings:
4/5. Pretty okay, nothing special. Id say strings are mostly 3 attack chains. He can do , against fuzzy. Some mid/low(from string) or mid/throw nitakus.
His 2 hit strings are nice though, since most of them leave you at an advantage or just knock down.
is your knight in shining armor here. great range, also covers great vertical range(for pickups after not-tech) leaves you at an advantage and gives nitaku opportunities. Also it has an unblockable carged attack and can be delayed. If the first hit wallslams the secon hit cumples for a 130 damage combo on anybody, but taka(good damage on him too though).

Mixups:
5/5. Pretty great, since you can force a nitaku after a lot of knockdowns or when the opponent is scared to press and in your strings, simply with jeans charge attacks, which you can also cancel to punish evades or twitchy opponents.
, is great so force nitaku situations, with beeing +6 on CH or +5(CH+9) on the cancel when charging . SInce this also combos, you have a free nitaku after hitting with and hitchecking the first hit.(this goes for a lot of his charge cancel attacks. so they not just stop evades, but also lead to a nitaku on normal or CH)
Obviously he also has for a mean nitaku and a CH combo(or CH advantage), if your opponent guessed wrong. Its also a guaranteed combo starter on back hit.
Also the auto follow for his charge moves is +6 on hit, which is devious, since 3-hit-strings ending in a low are usually - on hit. Not just a nitaku, but also a nice frametrap against people with low matchup exp.

Mids:
5/5. One of his best areas. Pretty good elbow and some 15 frame mids, very long range attacks like ,. Almost all of his charge moves are mids(if not mid, they are circulars). A good mid knee launcher, that still leads to some damage, even when hitting a crouching opponent. His personal SPoD, which is okay(at least faster than akiras with 19 frames).
Sadly no mid circulars, a bummer, but not very bad, since his charge cancel full circulars are fast enough to punish evades before they can be cancelled into a crouch dash.(At least i havent seen anybody evade it fast enough, if you are just vulnerable for 11 frames after a ecdc, it should technically be possible.)

Lows:
4/5. Pretty good, most lows are minus on hit, but some CC lows are plus(just +2, but enough to keep up the pressure with a fast attack). Has a low circular, wich is always nice(in case your opponent doesnt tech, you can get a good combo off of it with a CH).
is low profile and half circular, pretty good attack.

Standing punish:
4/5. Pretty good. 12 frames , 13 frames +(only combos on taka in a corner, not on others, but at least a knockdown). At 15 frames some combo punishes are possible. In the corner you can get around 90 damage from , combo near the corner, which is pretty damn good for a safe launcher(its only a launcher in the corner)
No launcher punish below 16 frames midscreen though, so only 4/5 here.

low punish:
3/5 basic, no low throws. I guess that makes him avarage. His really fast punishers are also all high except for , which is a mid(i15).

RO potential:
3/5. gets people over low walls. Basic combo, that works on everyone except take carrys very far. Moves that knock down also knock pretty far away.

anti-yutori:
3/5? no clue honestly
i guess a guardbreak counts here. Relatively easy to perform and does good damage. With 24 frames its reactable, but faster than a lot of other gbs.

anti-evade:
4/5. CC full circulars are great and fast. half circulars for any direction with same execution time with nice followups.
a half circular launcher is a great thing though.
no circular mids though, which sucks. Okay there are a few, but they are charged moves.

range:
4/5. Roll beats a lot of stuff and gives a mixup or a combo, if not shaken out of.
+ stops a lot of long range approaches and leads to a combo on CH.
Very long range lows and and relatively long range mids for poking.

defense:
3/5. realatively high weight, so at least no lowered defense here. reversals for mids/highs and lows. the mid/high one is for punches and elbows only though.
Lead to almost 70 damage each. Optimal combo(stance dependant does a little more than 70). Good timing of those reversals can result in so much advantage, that you get a free launcher, but its very hard to tell that without frame display on.

Wall game:
5/5. Can easily get a wall stagger even from a great distance(also has a practical low wallstagger move). From a wallstagger his damage is between 130 and 140(lightweights), even on taka. He also has excellent oki setups after this if he ends his combos a little different than usual.
for opponents that shake well: leads to a guaranteed combo in the corner
for more than 90 damage on lightweights and again, great oki setups for a little less damage.
For people that can not shake out of staggers, play lightweights and carelessly go near walls jeans max damage is 219.

side pressure:
4/5. good side pressure. Has an unblockable after a charged hit(easy to set up after ,(charged).

Oki
5/5
all kinds of rising kick punishes. ++ reversals low rising kicks.
has a few good crushing moves with his roll and +
if you end combos in such a way, that the opponent cant get up immediately, you can place a charged attack.

Lastly and very importantly:
Jean is hella safe. His knee launcher is -15, but his other launchers are completely safe. He has hardly anything worse than the knee launcher or his low full circular. This makes Jean a pain if youre good at guessing throw directions and play honest.

Yea i think jean is a fairly high tier character...

 

Sarah Opinion:

Weight - 1/5

One of the lightest in the game but not on the same level as Eileen or Blaze. She can be carried pretty far by juggle happy characters (read: Jacky, Kage, etc). In stages that allow ring outs, getting launched from anywhere that isn't the dead center of the ring always carries the risk of a ring-out. Also, put her on a wall and watch the life bar melt.

Throws - 3/5

3 out of 5 because Sarah has 2 throw games: Flamingo Stance (4/5) and non Flamingo Stance (2/5)

Flamingo is 4 out of 5, not because of the damage from her throws, but because of the amount of options you have to work with. She can get you with 4 different throws from Flamingo: 1 throw to break up Yutori (FL 2K > P+G), 1 throw that can connect on block (FL 3K+G > P+G), 1 throw specifically for ring-outs (FL Step P+G), and one throw for damage that can also ring out over low walls (FL Step 41236 P+G).

Outside of FL her throw game becomes a bit below average. Except for her neutral throw and her 41236 P+G, her grab game doesn't do much for her positioning and isn't really note worthy on damage. Her wall throw is absolutely useless as it leaves her in a worse position than her opponent when shes done.

Strings - 2/5

Her strings aren't terrible, but they aren't the focus of her offense either. The only purpose of Sarah's strings is to get her into Flamingo. Period.

Outside of flamingo, she has a few options. Yet, her strings are not one of them. The only good thing about her strings is that at the end of she has a good few endings. The problem is none of them are worth anything. , sidesteppable, -27 on block , sidesteppable, -4 on block, 0 on hit , -18 on block. Her best option from P string is her foward slide.

However, her strings are varied, effective, and have great follow ups.

In Flamingo, she doesn't have too many strings. 2 variations, both of which are sidesteppable. A which is good for catching crouchers and dick punchers. And a string which can either be finished with a delayed to catch sidesteppers/crouchers, or manually cancelled into a throw. But, that's more of a mixup than a string.

Mix-ups - 4/5

From every stance she can easily and effective deal with sidesteppers, 2P fanatics, or turtles. The opponent must constantly choose between which kick to eat. Yet, there's the problem, if the opponent chooses wrong, Sarah gets a decent combo or possibly more room to apply pressure. Yet if Sarah chooses wrong, she can be punished...severely.

Her greatest asset, however, is her ability to get into Flamingo from damn near any position. Once in FL she can mix-up and pressure with the best of them.

Mids - 2/5

Sarah has theme of high risk, moderate reward. Her mids are a great example of that.

Outside of FL she has standard underwhelming options. Her best being which can lead into pressure on hit/counter. Every other mid in her normal stances are horrendously punishable, sidesteppable, or slow. She has her 14f , but that's best used for punishing.

It must be stated, however, that she has a great distance poke game of mids. , (which can be cancelled into FL), (great surprise attacke, terribly punishable at -17 on block), among others.

In FL, she has a few options, all of which on their own aren't great, but coupled with her amazing FL pressure are indispensable. (2P punisher if you use it from advantage, leads to nice combos), (nitaku)

Lows - 3/5

Nothing special, but can get the job done. She can sweep from all three stances and FS. From FL her low kick > throw is great for mix-up/pressure duty. She can get a good combo, as well as catch back dashers, with (but -6 on hit!?). And is good way to get into FL. That's 'bout it.

Standing Punish - 3/5

- 12f
- 10f
- 14f knockdown
- 15f launcher
- 17f launcher

I'd say that's pretty decent. Not to mention the many things she can do to get into FL and start applying pressure.

Low Punish - 3/5

Standard equipment. Nothing awesome, nothing terrible.

My personal favorites - or (staggers on crouching opponent, can follow up with FL 3K or FL 6K+G for combo glory)

Ring Out - 2/5

Not her strongest category. She can't carry a great distance on juggle. And she can't position her self well with throws. She has a few moves that can knock people over walls (including her 14f ), but they are all punishable if abused.

She does have a few throws that can push opponents out, including one throw from FL that was made specifically to do just that. However, ring outs with Sarah shouldn't be a cornerstone of her offense.

Anti-Yutori - 2/5

Sweeps and throws from FL will break this up pretty well. But nothing spectacular. From Flamingo her > throw and > throw will do a good enough job of stopping the other guy from just standing there blocking/TEing all day.

Outside of Flamingo...well...deal with it.

Anti-Evade - 4/5

She has full circular highs and lows from both normal and FL stance. She has full circular mids from backstep and FL stance. She has a plethora of half-circle kicks and slaps as well. The quickest of which being her 12f .

Zoning/Range - 3/5

Sarah plays best when the opponent isn't in her face. As such she has a few tools to push you off of her from all of her stances. Also she has a good number of kicks that seem to be able reach you from the other side of the ring if timed correctly. Her sweeps seem to have unending range. And the hit box on FL is clearly a glitch as it extends a good foot and a half beyond her boot.

Defense - 3/5

She has 3 sabakis: FL , , and FS which are all good, but aside from , they are all quite situational. Also, her ducks lows and gives a good combo on counter. She has a good number of moves that avoids lows as well. The best being as it transitions in FL with advantage on block.

She has a good few ways to get around being pummeled to death in a corner. But, like anything else with Sarah, guess wrong, get punished.

Also, tired of being beat to death on a wall? Counter , then fly away with .

Wall Game - 4/5

If you can keep them on the wall, you can get decent to great damage from combos and random pressure from FL. and FL are great combo starters. Her wall throw also does a good amount of damage, though it leaves her with her back to the wall when the open gets up...so take your chances with that.

Side Pressure - 1/5

She has some tools she can use on side pressure. The problem is it's just so damn hard to get your opponent into that situation with her that it's not even worth including in her gameplan.

Her best bet is and FS on counter. Then some quick follow ups. Aside from that, leave it alone.

Oki - 4/5

This honestly depends on the habits of her opponents. Yet, the fact that most of the time your opponent has to deal with the idea that he may wake up with Sarah in FL stance ready to strike is worth something.

Throw him, sweep if he likes to get up with a standing block or sidestep. Launch him with or punish him by going into FL with a stagger hit with if he likes to crouch. If he likes to get up swinging, block then punish with her 14f or any other appropriate move. Or just generally confuse and terrify him with the many many many ways she can cancel into FL while standing over him.

Bottom line: When your opponent is on his back, have fun.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly I'm not an expert at this game, but Sarah appears to me to be the perfect middle-of-the-road character. She has tools to handle most any situation, yet she isn't an overwhelming character in any one category. She's a solid character with weaknesses. If she's on her heels she's in trouble. If she's on the attack, it's hard as hell to stop her.

 

Neat idea.

Kage


Weight 2.5/5
Middle of the road but requires fastest timing for certain bounds to work on him which is an added bonus. Nothing special really

Throws 4.5/5
Really good imo. 60pts on backwards, 80+ on forwards, wall throws from multiple positions, extra damage side-throw option, a catch-throw from BT and a great hit-throw if you consider that part of a character's throw game (I don't). Would be 5/5 but I feel Taka and Wolf should be alone up there.

Mixups 4/5
This is one of his strongest areas. Ability to stop at various points of strings and enter stance(s), many final hits of strings are mid so you can't simply learn when to crouch and punish like a lot of characters. Very versatile.

Mids 2.5/5
Some great stuff here in terms of options, safety, evasive properties, advantage on guard moves, range, and non-linearity. However, he lacks damage, especially on normal hit, which is a huge downside to his game. Also, his fast moves are usually weak and his evasive moves are usually slow.

Lows 4/5
He has some good lows, especially compared to a lot of the cast. Depending on which stance he's in he has access to safe low pokes, full and half circ sweeps and even a combo starter. He isn't Lion but he has some nice stuff.

Standing Punish 2/5
Punishing is one of Kage's weakest areas and this is tied to the lack of normal hit/minor counter combo starters and his low damage in general. His punishment is best at the smaller frame advantages as he has powerful throws for +10, his PK is 11f and gives him stance options and his 4PK is a 13fr knockdown combo. After that his options get considerably weaker compared to most characters and he is left needing to use his difficult DPoD combo to try to keep up.

Low Punish 3/5
This is more difficult to judge but I'm gonna put him near the middle of the pack. His options for low punishing are pretty bad until you get to +15 for perfectly buffered DPoD which is probably more than any other character can do and then +16 for DPoD in general. This is pretty nice but the problem is his options don't get any stronger and I believe most sweeps are -18 on guard in FS. Other characters can really hurt you from that.

RO potential 5/5
Just amazing. Aside from Taka I think Kage has this area in the bag. Combos all carry a long way, both of his standard combo enders RO over low walls and he has ridiculous distance from his TFT throw.

Anti Yutori 3/5
Nothing really great. His low combo starter requires a counter hit and no longer has his catch throw. His main strengths vs yutori are his strong throws (can only break one), his hit-throw which works even if guarded and the fact that a lot of the time he can work around having his moves guarded since most are safe and have multiple defensive followup options. He also has a guard break but it is situational as it requires Shippujin stance.

Anti Evade 3.5/5
This goes two ways for me. On one hand he generally lacks full circulars or high damage half circulars (Jacky 4P+K etc). On the other hand he has lots of half circulars of varying directions including some fast ones to help deal with EDC as well as a combo starter (3PP) and his hit-throw for decent damage. His options are also bigger if you factor in his stance moves since shippujin has good half circulars and jumonji has a fast full circ sweep.

Zoning/Range 4/5
Probably one of the better characters for this. Can fight at all ranges and close distance quickly and safely if desired. He has decent whiff punishers in 2K+G (fast), K+G(big range, small combo starter) and 6K+G (big range, decent speed, combo is not guaranteed but big damage if they don't tech) but nothing amazingly punishing like some of Taka's launchers etc.

Defense 4/5 - Has a plethora of evasive moves and a really good stance (Jumonji) which has a sabaki that leads to a nice combo, a kick/knee reversal for big damage and an auto punch parry. Aoi has to be top of the pile here so I cant give him 5/5.

Wall Game 2.5/5
This is an interesting one. His dragon kick combo means that you can very often add extra damage to his combos using a wall, his TFT does great damage near a wall, and his RO game means you can wall carry very easily. The reason I don't feel his wall game is actually so great is the fact that his damage is still lower than most characters using a wall, his TFT is massively obvious to escape and he hasn't got a wall staggering low that isn't situational. This means it's hard to get them to run into your 2K+G splat or TFT unless they are inexperienced. Walls help Kage, but not anywhere near as much as some other characters.

Side Pressure 3/5 - Kage has some nice stuff from the side and both his side turning moves are mid, safe and half circular. From the side he has a great way to force a crumple in P+K as well as unblockable 4P+KP and 6P+G for extra side throw damage. Not amazing but not too shabby.

Oki 3/5
Oki is the perfect place to utilize some of Kage's slow but safe/advantage if guarded launchers such as 66P+K and K+G. It's also the perfect place for his 9K+G which destroys rising kicks as well as BT 9K. This is also aided by the fact that there's a lot of places Kage can add extra damage if the opponent fails to tech with moves like 2P+K which, in turn, can lead to them having to wake up into your Shippujin mixups. I almost want to score him higher but again, his lack of damage lets him down compared to trying to wake up against Wolf etc.

Edited: didn't know we were using .5s.

 

I actually started this exact same thread (with slightly different attributes) on our local fighting game board a couple of days ago
I'll give a shot at Jean too, since I was planning on doing him next on our own board.

Weight 4/5
Well, I guess being a heavy-mid weight equals to being better than average, though a lot of MW combos actually work on Jean.

Throws 1/5
On a scale of 1-5 someone has to have a 1 and I'll vote for Jean.
Reasons being:
Damage: while some characters have a a bit worse max damage throws than Jean (I'm thinking Brad and Lion, at least) they still have other good attributes for their throws. Like..
Positioning: Jean's throws don't really move the opponent anywhere. 4P+G can RO towards back but that's about it.
Other stuff: Jean has no catch-throw and no low throws. His standing throws all plant the opponent on the ground for basic forced KND oki but that's not really anything other chacters couldn't do. His wallthrow, like so many other characters wallthrows tends to get the opponent away from the wall, while 66P+G would keep them pinned.
So: 1/5

Strings (mixups)
Not going to break down his whole move set here... I think I'd give him a 3/5 mid-screen and 4or5 /5 near walls. I guess that would end up being 4/5 then.

Mids 4/5
6P, 3P, 4K, 33P, 3K, 3P+K, 6K, 3K+G, 66P
Better than average (3) but not quite a 5 either because he's got no fastish (15-17f) safe CH launcher.
Almost everything about his mid-pokes is awesome. They're fast, they're safe, they create situations and they've got nice range and the damage ain't too bad to boot. 6P follow-up could be better but you can just opt to use the el on it's own since it's fuzzysafe and +7 on CH.
3P+K can be used as a nitaku mid since it's mostly uninterruptable at +7 (but punishable on evade) or you can play it safe and keep on the poking side of things.
3K+G is +1 on block and stays pretty much in place so it's decent for oki games. 33P, 66P and 3K are very hard to backdash out of. 3PP is hit-confirmable and creates some distance, -1 on hit though. 4K,P is CH checkable and KND.
Not going to break them down more or this part turns into an essay.

Lows 3/5
None of his lows are + on normal hit. The sweep doesn't avoid highs and it's slow but still very punishable on block. The reason he doesn't get a 2 is because of 1P has nice range, avoids highs and is half circ and safe on block. Can also net you guaranteed damage near walls. 1K+G has really mad range for a low and it doesn't move you forwards. Also half circular. 2K+G has use near walls too.

Standing Punish 3/5
He's get 2/5 but I give him bonus points for having a 13f punisher and his ability to turn his mediocre punishes into monster damage when walls are present.
Against Taka this turns into 4/5 since he can get a lot more damage on the fatty mid-screen than what he does on others.

Low Punish 3/5
Jean can launch at -17 but so can a lot of others. Against -15-16 lows Jean gets decent damage with the possibility of a wall boomshakalaka. I wouldn't give him a better than average score here, though.

RO potential 4/5
Jean's combos have a lot of carry potential and he has a nice amount of pushback hits. He's only good at pushing people forward though, so no fiver. Also, his throws aren't helping this scoring any.

Anti Yutori
WTF is yutori?

Anti Evade 3/5
16f high half circs to both sides. His frontside gets some better covering with his lows. Jean also has a full circular high but it's a bit slow outside of oki or some of his more eccentric setups. He also has a fullcircular low but as far as tracking goes I'd strongly suggest using something else. Then there are his throws of course.

Zoning/Range 5/5
Jean's really good at anti-zoning as well as has weapons of his own. He has pushback hits to set something up and moves that keep him nicely rooted in place while poking a far. He's also really hard to backdash against since those fast mids of his are really good at catching backdashes. Then there's 1P+K. If Jean doesn't deserve a 5 here, I'm not sure who does.

Defense 4/5
Jean has a hp,mp,he,el parry that leads to combo and allows you to throwbreak at the same time. That in itself forces Jean above average in this category. He also has a low parry (although using it against low punches comes more down to offense, I think) and 1P+K hitbox evasion. Then there's 236P+K if you for what ever reason decide to use that instead.
He's get a 5 but his high evading moves don't shine and some characters have a bit better sabaki options to prevent Jean from being in the highest category here.

Wall Game 5/5
fast mid into 50/50 mix-up on hit. Fast wall splatting mid. Safe low that can get tons of guaranteed damage at angles. 2K,K guaranteed with wall hit for a small follow-up. Sweep for sidewallstaggers. Punishers and confirmable, safe mid-strings turning into monsterdamage wall combos. Really good wallcarrypotential with combos and can actually make anyone low wall splat at the end of his combos instead of just dropping alongside the wall.
Jean's wallgame is among the best.

 

Thanks everyone for your contributions, I didn’t know if this topic would interest anyone lol So I’m glad some of you took the time to write such long posts.

Unfortunately I was super busy at work the last few days and didn’t get to reply as much as I would have liked.

@Everyone : Yutori is the lazy TE defensive technique (Holding G + a throw escape). It is one of the most useful defensive tech in this game in term of risk reward so having tools to succesfully defeat this is something important. I feel chars with only one strong throw direction will suffer against this technique the most (Lei, Jean, Brad for ex) if they don’t have other tools to deal with that. Chars with good guard breaks (Akira), catchthrows or superior low game (Lion) will shine this category.

About giving marks : when putting marks my mindset is more to compare each char rather than standalone.
Think, is he the best or among the best ? 4 to 5
is he average ? -à 2.5 or 3.5
One of the worst ? --> 0 to 2

If you think about only what the char has without comparing has you would put 3/4 in every category, because it’s really rare that a char has no tools.
For example on standing punish, I wouldn’t put 4 to jacky.
At –10 his throws are average
At –11-he has PK, like 90% of the cast, -11 is rarely the difference maker in this category.
At –15 punishment is so so for him compared to half the cast that have 60ish combos. (Taka, Goh, Lau, Akira, Lion, Brad, OS Vanessa all get a lot more damage in this situation).

Conclusion he’s average at best imo should be 2.5.
I would dare to say that by design a lot of chars must have some 2s in a category.


Okizeme is also a good idea, we agree it doesn’t apply to tech rolling situations but only for getting up situations, right ?




@Marly : Side turned game, is a good idea, I had thought about it but I was thinking « well everybody has good side turned options in this game ». Side kick CH to 40% combo is something everyone has etc so I left it at that. But if you think about opportunies to create side turned, it can be an interesting category.

So to have a good mark in this category I would say it requires :
-Having good/lots of moves that create side turned situations
-Having guaranteed damage out ouf side turned (ex OS vane PPK after K+G CH= 50% life)
-Once in side turned having new properties on strings, if they are low it’s even better, cause it will beat the standard lazy TE behavior of the opponent in side turned.
-Having guard breaks. Most of them give super reward on side guard break, and it will beat lazy TE/Abare as explained above.

About the mixup/string :
I don’t really get what should be put in the mixup category, I mean everybody can mix up in this game. If I look at what you, seyu, Toydingo or Genzen have wrote for those two categories I’m not convinced about the need to make 2 categories. It looks like everyone will put high marks on mixups so there’s no point if everybody.
I felle the mixup in this game is rather attack/guard than high/low (ie PP6P /throw).
I consider Eileen cancels as strings since it plays the same roles for the opponent, he has to make a choice.



@No_w_h_ere : Thanks man
Regarding your marks :
2.5 for Goh’s mid ??
3 for his lows ??



So judging from this marks you consider his low game better than most chars and his mids average ?

I personally think he has some of the best mid game, his only flaw is he doesn’t have much semis but speed/damage/risk/range wise he’s super good !

3KP is « gohdlike »,
He has 14 frame elbow and 3PP for small/mid advantages
6K must be one of the best reward on CH in the game and is safe on block ! It’s basically the same if not more damage that other people have off their –15 on block launcher.
He has shoulder ram for those sabakis
He has charged 4P+K for tech rollers

His lows on the other hand are a bit slow and don’t knock down, they are pretty average imo.



@Genzen : About anti evade for Jacky, 46K+G is good but it’s also –15 on block so the risk reward is not THAT good, (vane 66Kor Lion 6+K+G are better for ex). He doesn’t have a lot of mid/semis. Some chars like Brad have 6_K type move, safe on block, 70+ on CH versus wrong evade or abare, that’s a lot better imo. I would give him 3.5


@Combolamas :
I think I agree with all your marks !
You got my idea of putting a low marks even if the char has tools, like for jean throws, with lazy TE in the game he deserves 1 or 2 at best imo. The question is who has a worst throw game than him ? None that I can think of (may be Eileen ?) So he can’t be at above 2.5 or 3.


@Elite and ToyDingo : thanks for your contributions guys, I must go back to work, I’ll try to spend some time to write some feedback soon

 

Taka briefly:

Weight 5/5
Dude is fat, heaviest in the game, but on the other hand doing comboes on him is either easier or harder depending on the character. Most characters suffer from lower juggle damage against him, almost everyone suffers from normal knd moves not knocking his ass down and leaving him with the frame advantage.

Throws 5/5
Best throw game in the game, hands down. True 50/50 guess with both directions doing 80 damage on average, plus he has some good RO and wall throws as well and a catch throw with a 3-way mixup.

Strings 3/5
There isn't really anything great here. While all of his strings are delayable by ages and can lead into his stance, Tachi'ai, for a mixup, they're either negative on hit or launch punishable on block. 4PP is an exception, two half circ bitch slaps across the face that gives frames on hit and optionally leads into Tachi'ai, but it's a double high, but he also has 4PP+K which is a high, mid string that also gives frames and can lead into Tachi'ai. Then of course there's 4P+KP. PP6P is also an ok string to yomi your opponent, but it's -10 on block.

Mids 5/5
Basically what this character is all about after throws. Crap elbow, negative on normal hit, but it's substitute 66P knocks down on hit and is still 14f, but it's -8 on block for both 66P and 66PP with 66PP being a double high. 6K is a ch launcher knee class attack at 18f and can be hitconfirmed into 6KP and can lead into Tachi'ai, but other than that it's nothing great. 3P+K is a double handed push that gives ok frames on hit and wall staggers, ok range too. K is a very long reaching kick which staggers backdashers and leads into an almost guaranteed 33P+K, great move to read opponent's backdashes. K+G is a stomach class attack that is unreversable even by Aoi AFAIK that can be hitconfirmed into K+GP for a combo, but K+GP is -16 on block. Then there's 4P+KP; Probably one of the most broken moves in the game as a 16f mid launcher that can be easily hitconfirmed and like said before of his strings is delayable by a lot, so opponents can be conditioned to be scared into attacking even after blocking the first hit. This move alone bumps his mids to 5/5.

Lows 2/5
Bad-ish. 2P+K is -15 on block and -5 on hit, but does duck under highs, 2P+KP is very much the same except it's a combo only on CH and is still negative on hit and a nice -20 on block. 2K is a bit "better" because it's "only" -4 on normal hit, but doesn't duck under highs and is still -15 on block, does more damage than 2P+K though. 1P+K is basically Wolf's old Grizzly Lariat as a one handed half circ knd sweep, goes under highs but it's slow and -20 on block, can lead to a fun low throw setup if opponent techs it though. Tachi'ai K is a fast low that ducks under highs, gives +4 on normal hit and a juggle on CH, pretty good move but is used quite rarely because of losing to 2P in most Tachi'ai situations. Then there's another great equalizer again in the guise of 8_2K+G; A low that is half circ to the side of your choice, gives a nice +15 on hit into a P+K combo of your choice, but is very slow and at least theoretically should be seeable always, and is -15 on block. Apparently you can mix this move up with 4K+G which is a mid with a similar looking animation?

Standing Punish 5/5
Pretty good:
-10 = Throws
-12 = P, PP or PPP (+5, -1, -2, option to go into Tachi'ai after PP or PPP, bad idea though)
-14 = 66PP (Double handed push into slaps, KND)
-15 = P+K (High head class safe launcher)
-16 = 4P+KP (Launcher, hitconfirmable)
-17 = 33P+K (Double hand launcher, strict timing required if punishing exactly -17)
-22 or worse (ex. flipkick) = 33P (Launcher)

Low Punish 2/5
Pretty much just 66PP or a low throw for -15 lows because 2_6P is 16f and because of that move he can't elbow from crouch, but for -16 and up he can just 4P+K or 33P+K for -17, but it's strict.

RO Potential 4/5
Most of Taka's comboes end in either 6P+KPP or 6KPP which carry the opponent reasonably far and knocks over low walls, plus for RO throws he has 66P+G for forward, or 4P+G, 2_4P+G and 1P+G for a RO if his back is against the side of the ring. He can also RO with HCBP+G, 66PP from a resonable distance away.

Anti-Yutori
I have no idea how to rate this, I guess it's as good as everybody else's with a good throw game? Taka does have a few guard breaks against opponents who just like to stand and lazy TE all day, though, plus his catch throw.

Anti-Evade 3/5
Taka is a bit lacking in the circular strike department; 44P is his only full circular, but it leaves him backturned no matter did it hit or was it blocked, plus it's high. 4P series is a bit better, with 4PP being half circ on both directions for the two slaps, 4P covers his back and 4PP covers his stomach, 4PP is a natural combo, gives frames on hit and can lead into Tachi'ai for a mixup. Then there's 1P+K which is half circ toward his back, and 2_8K+G which is half circ toward the side of your choosing. Other than these there are his throws of course, which is the main anti-evade Taka will be using most of the time, so as you can imagine abare is sort of good against him.

Zoning/Range 3/5
K reaches far, kills backdashes into 33P+K combo, 33P is a launcher with ridiculous range, other than that wants to be in your face so he can utilize his otherwise short ranged moves.

Defense 1/5
Yes, 1/5, defense is Taka's main weakness because the lardass _cannot fuzzy at -5_ which is very, very important! The only moves that leave Taka at -4 on block are 4P, PP, and 3P, 2K, 6P+KP, 2P+KP and Tachi'ai P+K+G on hit, which means he puts himself constantly in a nitaku because of his inability to fuzzy at -5. Besides his glaring weakness, he does have two sabakies; 4P+K+G which has armor against one HP, MP, or EL class attack and then retaliates with and S.High unblockable KND slap that does 50dmg, but this can be beaten or interrupted by doing strings, and HCF+P which sabakies the same as 4P+K+G and can give a juggle on CH.

Wall Game: 3/5
Pretty average. As stated before he has back throws which gives a small wall combo, plus 3P+K wall staggers. His only(?) true wall splat move is Tachi'ai P+K, which is sort of crap because it's linear and comes from his stance, so it's easy to see coming. His wall damage from wall comboes is also pretty average, around 90-100 tops for most of the time not counting the throws.

That's about it.

 

No, 2/5 is prett correct if you ask me. The spread sheet explained weight as "Weight class aka the damage you will take from combos in general" and Taka being so heavy takes less damage basically because he cannot be comboed as easily as other characters, but it depends.

 

Because for example Jean gets comboes on him which he can't on anybody else, as does Akira. That was my reasoning why it's not 1/5.

 

I think Marly meant that higher score = better cause less combos work. And since theres nobody who weighs more, Taka should get maximum score.

 

Okay, 5/5 it is then.