Community Tier Chart

I like Libertine's idea.

I think the value of having actual players make a 'tier list' is that we can use applicable knowledge to make more relevant observations, rather than trying to make a list based on stats like how many people use the character in tournaments and what percentage makes it through to round X, Y, and Z etc. We can say, 'this guy is good because he gets lots of damage from safe attacks and his throws are good', or 'this guy isn't so good because he's mostly linear and his throws are weak' or whatever.

Being able to decide on a few fundamental categories that are the basis of what makes a character good, would, in my opinion, be a better option. Like someone mentioned before, Jacky's defensive abilities are almost non-existent (Pak Lol), so that's almost a whole category of points lost, and those points are worth as much as points for strings/punishment etc.

I like Libertine's categories mostly, though I don't think 'Zoning' needs to be its own category, but could be considered when judging other groups (like, characters with strong 'backdash > attack' could be considered in the offence category). I also think 'Side-pressure' could be combined into the general 'Offence' category - that's just one of the areas that make up how strong someone's offence is.

I do think some kind of 'defence/safety' category is needed - one that covers how hard it is to offence against a character successfully. For example, Kage has a lot of attacks with evasive properties and sabaki moves, and a lot of his attacks are fairly safe, so even when it's 'your turn' to attack, it's harder to work something in than on someone like Jeff, who, when he's on the disadvantage (which he is, a lot), you know you're not gonna get spanked by a combo-starter that evades/sabakis your chosen attack. Aoi would be another example. She can reverse any attack, and she has a few decent stop-start strings, so you have to consider whether to attack and risk eating a delayed string, as well as making sure the level of your attacks doesn't become predictable. Not exactly the same game as having to worry about Wolf's almighty 'RAWR!' thing.

 

Wouldn't that stuff be included under Offense?

 

And possibly change the points given to certain categories. Like important things 1-5 and not so important ones 1-3. Lows aren't THAT important so it could just have a 1-3 rating. Lion for example would have 3 as he's got the best ones. Circulars could also be a 1-3 I think. Maybe throws too (they function the same for everyone anyway, the difference within this category only boils down to damage and positioning). Just examples.

This would avoid huge point differences from characters being strong in an area that's not as important as some others. Just have to think which ones they should be.

 

Combolammas,
Lion wins games because of his lows mostly.
They're not that important for Jacky but they're important for Lion so why would we consider that area not important for him?

 

I'm not saying not to consider them important for Lion? I said lows as a category could have a lower overall rating. Dropping Lions lows from max points 5 to max points 3 is hardly going to butcher his overall ranking and it would be a lot easier to rank the rest of the characters with 1-3 without lows having too radical weight in the total ranking. Shitty to pretty bad lows 1, mediocre to ok lows 2, good to awesome lows 3.

Maybe lows shouldn't be one of the categories with less max points. But I feel having 1-5 for everything is kinda weird since it makes having a good wall game as important as having good mids. In this case, it's not even applicable in every stage. Should the maximum for it be 5 like everything else or dropped to 1-3?

Or take zoning as a category for example. It's very effective for some characters and can be very effective vs some characters but should the maximum really be 5? That's a pretty big bump to the total score for having some long range moves or pushback.

For the record, I started something like this on our own forum (and kinda forgot it) but in my version I had sub-categories. Like
Offense
- Damage
- Range
- Throws
- Circulars
- Lows
- Anti-sabaki / reversal

What I did kinda wrong was that I only ranked offense 1-5 and the subcategories were just for reasonings. Now that I think about it retrospectively I should have given the subcategories 1-5 or 1-3 and then put the point total for offense. I also had wallgame as a standalone category with 1-3. Just an example of a different thing.

EDIT: lol at my early version not having mids in there. I think CH potential is one that also should be in there.

 

Ah, well I meant sabaki moves and moves with evasive properties. I think it's going to be hard not to have categories that overlap to a degree. That was my point to suggesting the categories that I did, though there may be better ways.

 

My goal was to know if the work was nearly over or not? Since I'm "fairly-new" to this game I try to gather information of how the characters are "seen", in terms of strength, by other VFers. (I thought it was the right place to do so...)

To be constructive:
I work in data analysis.
So ...:
The more class of information, intel, comments, levels in the scoring system of the character the better it is.
Why?
Because if you want to make a change you can! (4 ex: 2 class became 1 class is possible. 1 became 2 and you have to make the work back to ground zero)
For the moment if you want to add a line feel free to do so. There is only one thing to ask to fill it!
Keep the 0 to 5 rule. If you want to change it afterwards you can and you'll make it with a lot more precise way.

The first thing is to gather data. An other one is to say how it counts. Third one is to show the results as they are with the right understanding.

(my appologies for my english)

 

True but for a character like DS vane I feel having a moves like 3P or 46KP are really good as "flowchart crushers".

Well that's... the defense category. It already exists




Thanks guys I appreciate your inputs, but changing categories on page 14 ?!!
After I asked what the categories should be like 10 times at the begining ? You want me to die or what

@Lib: I changed the weight category to "Combo vulnerability", you are right it is more accurate.
For the other categories you listed I'm like Marly, I don't like the mix of Offense/Defense, Sabaki moves in offense just don't make it for me.
I agree we should add side pressure.
But "Damage" will be really hard to deal with as a category imo, eveyone has good damage, even Eileen has. Some have slight better damage but it's often of slower moves (Lei's launcher), I feel it will be hard to have low marks.

@Combolamas: I like the idea of a 1-5, 1-3 scale and to have sub categories (but may be later cause adding more work
so far I would make :

1-3
-Wall game (as stated it only apply to certain stages)
-RO (same reason)
-Lows may be (or give it a 1-4 scale ?)

1-4
Standing punish
Low punish
Anti Evade
Strings
Zoning
Defense
Side pressure
Anti Yutori ?

1-5 (the core of the game)
Mids
Throws
Anti Yutori ?

What do you think ?


Let's try to put another gray line for the Low punish category so far we have:

5 Brad
4 Akira, Jeffry
3,5 Aoi, Shun, OS Vane
3 Lau, Sarah, Eileen, El Blaze, Pai, D Vane, Kage, Goh, Jacky, Jean, Wolf Taka
2,5 Lei
1 Lion

I feel jacky is a bit low, may be Lau too. Shun may be a bit high I need to check his options, also need to check if Jeffry deserves his spot.
Lion deserve his 1, he lacks a true NH launcher under 19f and even then its damage is below what other chars get at -16 to -18. And was even worse in vanilla lol.
I need to re-check if -16 punish damage on lows is really "relevant" in the game but iirc it was (Pai bokutai K is -16 for ex).

 

Lion hcfP is -16 also.

I don't see why Jeff is so high. 14f 4K,P, 16f 2_3P,P for sideturn, 17f launch.

On the other hand, Sarah can launch -16, she also has a 17f launch and 6P,K (or maybe 7K, dunno about recovery counter damage on that) for -14 to -15. Or 6P,4K for less dmg and FLA. How is she so far below Brad?

I think Goh deserves a mid spot. 3PP for -15 to -16, 4K!P+G for -17, 33P launch for -18 and big 1P+K launch for those super unsafe ones.
Aoi also looks right with 0,5 above Goh since she has a 16f low punish. Otherwise it's kinda similar.

Akira looks a bit high, maybe. He has K+G,P for -16. Launch at -17. I don't see double palm being that much more superior to people with elbow into a KND follow-up.

I think Shun's pretty right. At 6DP he can launch -16 and he's always got a launch at -17 and -18 though the damage at 0DP isn't anything to write home about. He's somewhat weak at -15 with only 6PP and he needs drinks for actually getting damage and that -16 launch but that why he isn't higher.

P.S. I just tried looking through a few characters' frames, didn't see -17 lows. -16 seems to just jump to -18. I think the important stuff is just what you're able to do to -15, -16 and -18.
I'm fairly sure everyone can do their worst for stuff more than -19.

 

Thanks for putting the time to research that info.

iirrc Akira was high cause the damage he gets from K+G,P is high, Same for Brad his damage of 16f and 18f may be the highest in the game, but it's true Sarah options are close and only damage may be the difference here so we should give her a better mark. Though I don't know about Sarah's damage may be it's similar ? I think Feck and Lib posted Akira/Brad 's damage a few pages back.

I think that if we go for a 1-4 scale on this category we can go this way:
4-Akira Brad
3 All chars that have good -15/-16/-18
2 Chars that lacks one good option from the above situations (Goh lacks -16 for ex)
1 Lion

That would be pretty standard
Also should low throws play a role or not ?
If we follow the same reasonning as for standing punish it should'nt but for ex with Goh at -16 you got a 3 guessing game with his low throws that can fill the gap he has at -16...

 

Jeff's 3PP is a 16f launcher, but due to distance it sometimes only hits during the second active frame making it 17f, so...

 

You can't 3PP out of crouch..

 

Yeah, but how often do they get good damage? Something to consider. For instance, I don't think that Sarah gets good damage as often as, say, Akira. I've been told that Akira's damage isn't that high. Instead of arguing with that, I'd say that it's offset by the fact that he gets combos often. Better that than high damage combos that are difficult to land.

 

Ah, of course, never mind A few characters have trouble with these overlapping moves, Jeff and Taka for examples. Sega should really either add in more buttons or change the inputs around a bit to circumvent this.

 

I don't know much about Jeffry, but if I understand what you are trying to say, it's not much different from Brad 16f punisher which is 2P+K6P.

 

Jeffry has a so if you are already crouching that is what comes out instead of . You can do to get around this, same concept as buffering a crouch move from standing, but it costs a frame usually.

 

Suggestion for character ratings since it should be based around how well the can abuse the system:

1) Ability to mix-up: Should be rated on the ability of an opponent to actually defend against something on a percentage basis. For example, if you are in a true 50/50 (full-circular mid that has frame advantage to beat anything versus throw), then that should be considered high. Most characters don't have true 50/50 's at any frame advantage with the exception of a few. For example, Sarah FL at +4 (most common situation "good" situation) is a three-way fundamentally (full-circular low, crumble-mid attack , Knee ). Yes, you can include step and all that stuff, but no matter how you slice it, more often than not, it's a three-way mix-up. The more options you need to cover the opponent's options, the worse the mix-up is. I would argue speed should also be considered, but I don't think we need another what you can actually react to battle again

2) Offense Damage: Ability to create damage off of a mix-up. Should be simple enough. Probably should take into account if a person needs CH's or not. Akira doesn't really need CH's as much as Sarah and thus should be ranked higher.

2) Risk-Reward: Should be based on how much damage a character can get weighted against risk and frequency. For example, Vany OS is a tech jump launcher that is -15 but can easily lead into 90-100 damage. Sarah's is a standard launcher that is -15 but really only leads to that kind of damage on CH. Obviously in this case, Vany's OS Damage should be higher than Sarah.

3) Toolset: Should be based on how many tools a person has. For example, characters with 14 frame demolish moves (Brad Spinning "Yaw!" Elbow for example) should be higher than those who don't. Guard breaks should be considered as well as full-mid circulars and how you can use them. Also, how effective are those tools. For example, Goh's or Lion QCB is useless against Akira, but against Sarah are nearly broken, thus they are situational, but a 14 frame demolish move is always useful.

4) Weightclass: Self-explanatory

5) Punishment: While tricky, I think it should just be based on how much damage you can get based on frames. Thus, -12 standing most frequent and -19 or worse not very frequent

+ is a 16 frame launcher but it is 2 hits (causes bad scaling) and there are very few moves that are exactly -16. Standard lows and launchers are -15 whereas most big moves are -17 or worse. Also depending on the active frame that makes contact, it is easy to have no idea if you are at +14, +15, or +16. My point would be having a 14 frame demolish move (Brad has this but not Sarah) is useful in this situation since you can get guaranteed high damage or go for even greater damage if you're feeling risky. In Sarah's case, it's either great damage or opening yourself up for monsterous damage against people who have 14 frame demolish moves since her launchers are -15 (both and +).

My off-the-cuff tier list that I don't really care about nor have even thought about or care to defend

S: Akira
S-: Jacky
A+: Taka, Wolf, Jean
A: Brad
A-: Vany, Shun, Lion
B+: Lau, Goh, Lei-Fei
B: Aoi, Kage
B-: Blaze
C+: Sarah, Jeffery, Pai
C: Eileen

 

2P+K,K both hit's hit grounded, no damage scaling until the opponent goes in the air.

Most lows are either -15, -16 or -18 so 16f punishes DO matter when considering low punish category.

For -14 and -15 Brad has 6P,K which isn't exactly that much superior to Sarah's 6P,K, a few points damage diffence though. Not sure what the last part actually means but I take it you mean going into slipping? Since that's not guaranteed damage it should not be counted.

Not sure how the first part is about low punishing in anyway. Oh, and Vane OS 9K is -15.

On another note, I really don't feel Akira should be near tops for low punishing. K+G,P might do good damage but it's not launcher damage, is it? Jacky should be the best low punisher. 14-15, flipkick for 62 if you're in range or 6P,K for whatever 40ish it does. 16f P+K,P launch, 17f 6K launch. And this guy hits hard on juggles. The fact that he launches -16 and gets even more damage from there on and does damage comparable to a small launcher on those -15 lows should throw him to low punish tops easily.

 

Really? Hmm...If that's true then that's news to me. Was always under the impression scaling was based on combo length. Oh well.

It's the frequency you will be in those situations. Brad is far more likely to be able to use 14 demolish at +14 & +15 and gets very high damage off of it whereas Sarah's + is way too situational and rare in comparison despite the damage being pretty good. Like I said, the frequency needs to be taken into account. It's far more likely to be a +14 or +15 than +16 or better unless you are playing someone who spams launchers or terribly unsafe moves. Never said anything about slipping...

That was a mistype, sorry about that. Some other launcher is -10, probably Brad's or something. Vany just popped into my head for some reason.