Community Tier Chart

Unless it's not clear, we're talking punishing lows here. Those things that recover crouching after being blocked. For that Brad's and Sarah's guaranteed damage options are very close to each other. 14f - 15f 6P,K, 16f Brad 2P+K,6P / Sarah 2P+K,K, 17f+ Brad 6K+G / Sarah 1K.

 

I was referring to punishing in all situations so MarlyJay is correct. I was merely saying that standard lows are -15, it can easily be standard launchers as well. My mistake for using a mis-leading example. I don't disagree with you regarding the low punish, but when you account for standing punish, Brad is leagues better than Sarah. If we are talking strictly lows, then I'm in agreement with you. However, when you factor in the standing punish games, Brad is superior to Sarah.

 

I ran a punishment test for Brad. Please forgive any inaccuracies, since I can't read my shorthand!

+14-15 - Both Stances

39 damage on all characters.

+16 - Open Stance

106 damage on Eileen and Blaze.

99 damage on Lion and Vanessa.

89 damage Sarah and Pai.

87 damage on Shun.

85 damage on Lei.

81 damage on all characters up to Akira.

72 damage on Wolf and 81 damage on Jeffry.

54 damage on Taka.

+16 - Closed Stance

90 damage on all characters up to Jean in Closed Stance.

69 damage on Wolf and Jeffry.

54 damage on Taka.

+17 - Open Stance

106 damage on Eileen, 103 on Aoi and Blaze, and 102 on Sarah.

93 damage on Pai.

88 damage on every character up to Akira.

86 damage on Wolf and Jeffry.

74 damage on Taka.

+17 - Closed Stance

102 damage on Eileen, Blaze, and Aoi.

97 damage on Sarah.

93 damage on Pai.

88 damage on all characters up to Akira.

81 damage on Wolf and Jeffry.

72 damage on Taka.



This is all for low punishment. I posted standing punishment earlier in this thread, I think. Sarah does better than Brad in the following departments:

She gets 57 damage on Taka at +12.

She gets 47 damage as a low punish at +14 () on all characters. Standing punish she only gets 50 damage.

If the player can make 18 frames from crouching, she can get better damage than Brad on Taka.

My testing is far from thorough, though. So maybe there's more. Overall, I doubt she comes close to matching Brad in the punishment department.

 

I don't think Sarah will beat Brad in low punishes. I'm actually more arguing that their options are similar as far as getting launches at -16 and -17.

This should IMO pretty much shoot her to the upper tier for low punishing instead of the middle where she is. I'm also arguing that Akira shouldn't be near tops for low punishing since he can't launch -16. Neither should Jeffry.

Taka is also ridiculously low in low punishment category. 66PP I think does less than the characters with 6P,K or some 15f mid hit (like Goh 3PP) but it's there and he can also launch -16 and get's a big launch at -17.

From the top off my head, Lau looks about right or he might actually be a little too high. I don't know how much minor counter bonus functions so some of these options are be obsolete but he has
14f 6PP
15f WS K
16f 6P+K,P+K
16f 9K+G,P
18f 2_46P

I think out of that his WS K for -15 and 9K+G,P for -16? No launch at -16. At -18 he gets a launch. Dunno how much dmg Lau pulls off of that one in FS but it's a slam, not a huge float.

Actually, OS Vane is a bit high too. No 16f launch. -14-15 6P,K -16 P+K,K and -17 launch.

I think in most cases characters who have a 16f launch for crouch punishing tend to also have a powerlaunch at -17 or -18 (the number that matters out of those 2). There's no way that characters who can't launch -16 are above characters who can unless they absolutely suck at punishing -15 (so far I don't think anyone of them does).

 

Ok so we need to confirm Akira's damage.
So on a 1-4 scale:
4 Brad Jacky ?
3 Sarah Akira ?
2 Lau, Goh, Taka, Jeffry, Eileen, Blaze, Aoi, Shun, Pai, D Vane, Kage, Lei, Jean , Wolf
1 Lion

For OS Vane have 16 frame launcher punish with 66KP but due to the input I don't know if it's reliable 16f or 17f I need to test. If it is she'll be a 3 otherwise a 2.

 

Oh, that launches from crouch? Didn't know that. She's quite fine up there then. And if it's about a dash input it shouldn't really matter for the chart. It's nice to mention that it's harder but that stuff is humanly possible so there's no reason to lower a rank if something requires a dash input.

 

Is OS low punish what happens when you forget about and do by accident?

J/K. But how about a "backdash vulnerability" category? Last time i checked, setting the CPU to backdash from the starting position, all of DS vane's moves except 2 can be backdashed by the opponent. That's a non-trivial flaw. Maybe other characters have the same problem - dunno, maybe jeffry? Besides and his reach seems rather poor.

Also shouldn't there be a "tracking" category? Characters with fast full/half circulars that can actually beat E(C)DTEG should be ranked higher than those that lack them. Same kind of distinction between medium tracking moves, low and high ones.

 

That would fall into the range category.
Jeffry has other moves with range 3K has huge range, 1P+K not bad, 43P seems ok too

That's the "Anti Evade" catgory.

 

Aha i see now. Thanks for clarifying again. This thread has been going on for so long i'm starting to forget the first posts

 

Most characters's most moves whiff from starting position vs backdash methinks.

I don't think doing a dashmove from crouch takes an extra frame. I'm moving stuff around in my apartment so I can't give you a test result for say Goh 66P vs -18 sweep right now, but I've previously tested that Jean gets 66P back hit guaranteed on Kage 44K+G (-12 BT). 16f moves hit side. 66P hits side only if you buffer it slow.

 

About the damages what about a starter category : like libertine said how often you can use it (opportunities), how much damage from it, how safe/unsafe it is ?