Community Tier Chart

This is mine for El Blaze:


Weight: 1/5
Blaze is eats big damage. Gets away with some stuff due to weird hitboxes but for the most part you're looking at huge damage every time he gets popped into the air.

Throws: 4/5
Blaze has throws of every type. Standing, crouching, ground, wall, hit and catch throws out the arse.
The only reason I didn't put him as a 5/5 is because the damage is quite small althought the positioning is good.

Strings: 4/5
Blaze has a lot of strings and they all have their uses. The best part about blaze strings are the enders. Usually mid and usually threatening enough to allow you to set up throw mixups or continued pressure. The only reason I didn't put this at 5 is because these strings are all fairly short and offer little to no branching.

Mids: 3/5
He has good, solid mids. A nice new hit checkable elbow with a knockdown K follow up. Mid launchers such as his volcano knee and some lovely mids which give good knockback on block and afford decent range. Mid combo starters are all pretty unsafe though.

Lows: 2/5
Lows are pretty meh to be honest. He has a full circular low which knocks down on CH and can even get a wall splat. Has an option from open or closed when fighting alongside a wall to start a combo. Low dropkick is nice but the one from RD is easy enough to react and punish BIG. From standing low dropkick gives a nice combo and sick oki on CH. Keep mashing dem highs.

Standing Punish: 2/5
Always felt like Blaze's punishment is lacklustre and that hasn't changed. Could be worse I suppose.

Low Punish: 3/5
Volcano knee can pop them up, outside of that enjoy using 6PK. Only reason it's not lower is that low throws remain an option.

RO potential: No wall: 3/5, ankle wall: 2/5, half wall 1/5
With no wall your throws are good to ringout, kinda. Toward his back Blaze has good throw ringout options such as Neutral and . His juggles afford some carry not much though.

On the ankle height wall you can no longer throw out at all with Blaze. So you have to rely on his juggles. On a half wall you might as well be playing on a full wall. Not many options. Oh, and like most characters, against Taka on a half wall you cannot ring him out at all but he can fuck you.

Anti Yutori: 2/5
A guard break that is so overwhelmingly shit he may as well not have one. Nice catch throws though (from stance), 9P+G is pretty good but if you fuck up you will get launched and rofl stomped. Saving grace is nice string setups like 4PK and 46P

Anti Evade: 5/5
Full circular mid that gives a mixup on block. Lots of half circulars, sexy K+G, throws, full circular low and half circular low.

Zoning/Range: 1/5
6K, 43K+G. Have fun. Although that said you can really fuck people up with a demon's tail. Jump ins SF style.

Defense: 2/5
Has a high sabaki. Outside of that you gotta defend. High sabaki is a guaranteed launch though.

Wall Game: 3/5
Alongside the wall he has fast low combo starters from either stance. Can cause wall stagger with a bunch of moves. Surprisingly his wall damage is quite tame in comparrison to a lot of the cast. Has a nice combo from 46P+G when opponent's back is to the wall.

Side turn: 3/5
Good if you can hit check some of his stuff has quite a hard time trapping in side turn but 4PK is pretty tasty in this position. Sideturned throws are good but people should be breaking that shit.

Swag: hotdog/5
What are you waiting for? Come get some!

 

Also add oki as 5/5. Rocket discharge will fuck a bitch up.

 

It's pretty obvious this move is designed for tech roll only, and if you keep it at that it works.
Actually if you suspect opponent will be evading on tech roll, meaty K+G is OS Vane best option, even delayed 9K isn't as good imo (damage is weight dependant, and -15 on block).
On block it' s +4.

If you land it on Taka PP6PK is guaranteed for something around 110, against other chars PPK is guaranteed for 90ish. You can also play PPP(P) mind games since PPPP is + on block on side turned and special high, or stop at PK and have +7 iirc. Even top japanese use this move, now if that makes you laugh...

It can also be used on people who like to abuse stepping from far range.
Or as a bait after a 44K+G after some conditioning.



About tech roll pressure, the problem is that everyone will put 4 or 5 to their character... (it has already begun) As shown above even a 30+ frame move can become deadly on tech rollers so ther's no point comparing. Who would have less than 3 honestly ?
Pressuring a down opponent is different, it involves dealing with rising attacks etc. not everyone is equal in this department.



About Taka low punishment, isn't it one of the best in the game ?
He has low throws
Very few lows are less than -15 on block in this game
From -16 he can go 4P+K and do the same combo that will work on 80% of the cast , few characters have those 16 frames launchers.
What else could he have ?


About Wall game I think it's also one of the best imo.
He has semis to wall combos, and 43P relaunch like no other move after wall hits. 33P+K /33P is one of the most damage a char can get from a OTG hit.
I play against Maxou a lot, and I spend most of my time against the wall, it hurts.
The thing is that Taka is also hard to carry, so even if you hit him you won't push him back that much and be back to the wall in no time.

 

A thousand times this.

 

My opinion on Taka :
Trying to make it a bit objective

Weight : 6/5
He is the heaviest character in game. Some KD strings or KD moves won't KD on him because of that and it's pretty hard to carry him or ring out him.
My problem is that is weight is an advantage and a disadvantage for him at the same time.
Some pretty ridiculous stuff becomes NC or NCC against him and he takes some really really big damage against some character.
So weight is as much an advantage as a liability when you play Taka. I don't know how to take that in account in a tier list : is that much weight a good thing? Not all the time !!

Throws : 5/5
One of the best throw game in VF5FS if not the very best.
Positioning, ring out, damage : Taka throws are scaaaary !

Strings : 2.5/5
Apart from 4P strings nothing is scary and safe. And everything can be evaded 33G to the stomach... Including 4P which is ducked. Yay Taka. Still he has 4P+KP and 4P can be scary in a side hit situation.

Mids : 3/5
4P+K, 6K, FC 6P , 66P are the interesting ones. Other stuff is accessory or pretty risky. 4P+K is really strong though, 66P and FC 6P are really good positioning and abare tools though.

Lows : 3/5
1P+K and 2P+K are nice tools. Both semi-circ. 1P+K KD on NH which is nice ... If only everything couldn't be evaded to the stomach !
Still a nice positioning, anti-fuzzy tool.

Standing punish : 3,5/5
Let's check :
- i10-i11 : throws like all characters
- i12 : P/2P/PPP When most (every other character?) has PK for a free mix up, Taka gets to chose between no-damage and mix up or between 30dmg and no mix up. Yay variety !!
Worst part of it? P/2P is often better than PPP because it has more damage potential. I even prefer throw to PPP most of the time...
- i14 : 66PP which is interesting because of ring out purpose and carry. Damage is the same as PPP around 30dmg.
- i15 : FINALLY a real punisher. Damage is 65dmg for most of the cast.
- i16 : 70dmg
- i17 :80-87dmg
So : punishment is interesting at i15, and under i14, Taka's punishment rivals the worst in the game.

Low punish : 4/5
- i12/i13 2P/low throw
- i14/i15 : 66PP (doesn't carry as far as standing 66PP)
- i16 : 70dmg
- i17 : 72-87 (and yes it's possible to 33P+K punish -17 lows)
- i22 : 80-89dmg(for highly punishable lows)
Like most characters, Taka punishment game for lows starts really at -16.

RO potential : 6/5
The best RO game is VF5FS. Not only does Taka has very good carry with his combos, he has really good positioning moves, so RO is always a threat in open stages. Especially for lightwieght characters.
6/5 may be pushing a little but there's no character in VF5FS that have a better RO game.

Anti-Yutori : 3/5
Delay strings, and 1P+K are your friend. But you can evade them to the stomach... So throws, throws and throws. Hopefully, your main throws deal a LOT of damage. So opponent is often at a guess to what to break.

Anti-evade : 2/5
Throws and delays. You can't do anything apart throws against someone who evade 33G to the stomach against Taka. Delays works too.

Zoning/Range : 3/5
It's hard for Taka to deal with good zoning.
You have exactly 3 moves to deal with backdash : K / 33P+K / 33P.
Of those 3 moves, you'll mostly use 2 of them (K and 33P+K), and most often than not K is the best choice.
- 33P+K is -17, and TERRIBLE on evade.
- 33P is -15 and terrible on evade as well and has less range than 33P+K. It also has less ring out potential since most 33P combo carries less far than 33P+K combos.
- K is safe but has less range than 33P+K. And it can be punished on evade. But it deals sick damage (100ish) if you manage to hit a backdasher with K.
So Taka's antizoning game is pretty limited. But the damage out of anti backdash K is so strong that it's not a weak antizoning game.
Honestly, K is kinda broken. A really good move. I may be biaised here, I only put 3 because of K. But if you can backdash after a pushback move, don't hesitate : most often than not, you will escape most of Taka's threats (even K whiffs the range is nice but not as nice as I'd wish it to be ) .

Defense : 1,5/5
Taka can't fuzzy at -5. And his set of -4 moves is ... limited. His few active defense moves (HCF P, 4P+K+G and 44P+K) are not bad (especially 44P+K since risk/reward is very good), but risky.

Wall game : 4/5
Even though Taka doesn't deal as much damage in wall combos as some characters, they're a permanent threat in every walled ring. His very good positioning and his very good carry allows for a very good wall combo pressure game.

Total : 46,5

 

-10-11= Nobody is better than him ! This basically free P+G throw or 50/50 80/80+ throw.
Since back throw is to be escaped cause of RO, it's an almost free forward throw. A lot of chars will have to use a 50 damage throw if they think their best throw is going to be escaped, taka can go with 80, what else ?

-12 PPP becomes guaranteed if you really want that guaranteed damage for the kill, but otherwise I would still gamble the throw, even the weakest "almost guaranteed" throw does more than PPP.

-14 is really scarce in this game, it's kindah hard to give more than 10 useful moves in the whole game that will be -14.

-15 "FINALLY" lol, well like almost all the cast. 14 frame launchers are almost always used in -15 situations for the reason above.

-17 Among the best carry/Damage

The only weakness is no PK, but the 50/50 80 damage throw makes up for it, I would put 4,5

This partially true, if you use 4P on tech rollers they wont be able to evade 33G. This is mostly how you use the move yourself so you should know lol. 4P,P+K is safe on block, gives 100 against the wall and cannot be evaded 33G to stomach on tech roll.
Nobody that I know has a 3 mid string that is safe on block anyway (fortunatly ), very few chars have a 3 mid string with mixups actually. His strings are pretty scary near the ring edge.
Not to mention the Side turned non sense

3 or 3.5 I would say.

 

- Of course nobody is better than him on -10 ! He HAS the best throws !
- On -12 PPP sucks I agree, I'd prefer gamble for the throw. But even if throws deal a lot of damage (that's true for a lot of character though), I'd still prefer a garanteed PK with a mix up afterward... and keep the big throws if I need to gamble for a kill.
Oh btw : P+G throw may be free for Taka but it's a horrible throw. You're pretty much stuck afterward, you need to guess the rising afterward because you know it's coming, and you can't avoid it lol. You can't backdash the risings attacks after P+G. If you want to take risks you can try the 6K/43P meaty though but the timing is really really strict (and everytime I try I fail).
- About -15 : that's exactly my point, most characters get a nice i12/i13 punishment tool. Even Lei Fei ! He needs to wait for i15 moves to deal a good punishement. And the point is, most players play kinda safe.
I am actually surprised some people use -15 or more punishable moves randomly (like I do with 33P+K, like the idiot I am - but the ring out is soooo tempting... ). Most of the time, punishable moves will be between -10 and -13. Instead of -15 :/.

You overestimate Taka's punishment game IMO.
Throw character doesn't always mean good punishment, even if the damage potential is high.

- Nay nay ! Block 4P, evade to the stomach, congrats you evaded 4PP+K and 4PP.
Now I need to use 4P into Tach'ai stance to try to counter that. Or 4P nothing.
Even on side hit (4P)P+K can be stepped. 4PP cannot be stepped though on side hit.
PS : And I wish I could use 4P on side rollers more. Problem is they do learn how to fight against Taka and stay OTG most of the time or attack after they raise up (usually 2P).

- Taka's strings becomes strong if there's a wall or a ring out... but risky !!
Even if opponent know how to play against Taka (which is rare, nobody use evade 33G against stance for exemple) they can be good because of stance. But to use stance I need to finish my strings sometimes because otherwise there would be no mix up... And if I finish my strings I end up at -15 and both of the enders (4PPP and 6P+KPP) can be evaded.

- I put the strings at 2.5 because stance SAVES him. Otherwise, everything he has sucks. Every other character has better strings apart perhaps from Akira who don't need strings.
His Tachi'ai stance is definitively one of the strongest in the game. It covers all options, people can try to counter it with Evade 33G (ducks Tach'ai P, evade the other Tachi'ai moves) but it will only last until Taka starts to delay his Tachi'ai options... or start not going into stance !

PPS : You definitively should separate mix up from string.
Akira has bad strings but really good mix up. Taka has mid- strings but a strong mix up too (throws, 4P+K, stance mix up).

 

Personally I would put him below the average.

Neck Catch has some great possibilities (push the opponent pretty far or switching sides) but they are too much predictable, the opponent can easily TE to avoid the worst scenario.

Aside from Neck Catch Brad doesn't have any move to switch side.


That said, he has his 4K, push the character nicely and from long range and is mid.
3PK is nice too, which in some case (depending to the distance to the border and the opened/closed stance) can be useful to RO, even over medium fences.

And of course 46P+K like you mentioned.

But that's pretty much everything to me.

 

I don't think the move is "designed" for anything. The developers haven't found a way to replace it yet, that's all. They removed the stagger because people were complaining about it and... did nothing else with it.

I have a question about OS p,p,f+p,k against taka. Wouldn't p,p,f+p,p be better? You give up some trivial damage but end up with a 50-50 situation, whereas p,p,f+p,k is either negative frames for vanessa (or neutral if sideturned).

Don't Sarah and DS vane 10f qualify?

Here's my take on vanessa (using White Wolf rating conventions for RPG attributes, 0 worst, 1 weak, 2 average, 3 above average, 4 impressive, 5 outstanding, 6 best).

DS
Weight 1 : Lightweight, tall
Throws 4 : B throw hurts, replace throw
Strings (mixups) 1 : Apparently DS p string is awesome. So not zero.
Mids 1 : Still waiting for an elbow and a mid launcher.
Lows 2 : At least has a sweep.
Standing Punish 1 : Trivial damage until -17; even then nothing special vs. lightweights.
Low Punish 3 : Low throws.
RO potential 1 : IDK, replace throw?
Anti Yutori 2 : At least both throw directions hurt. And b+p is + frames.
Anti Evade 3 : Circulars: f+k+g; f,f+k; k+g; k,k. Also remember, throws hurt.
Zoning/Range 2 : df+k and f,f+k. That's it. See my post.
Defense 3 : Some sabakis, out of which only b,f+p+k floats.
Wall Game 2 : Nothing to write home about.
Average 2

OS
Weight 1 : The only thing identical about the two stances.
Throws 2 : Meh
Strings (mixups) 2 : OK i guess.
Mids 2 : Standard elbow and knee laucher present.
Lows 1 : Not even a sweep.
Standing Punish 4 : Decent 14f punisher, hurts taka, sobers shun, extra damage vs. lightweights.
Low Punish 3 : Standard 14f elbow, f,f+k,p from -16 onwards.
RO potential 1 : IDK
Anti Yutori 1 : Nothing special.
Anti Evade 2 : F+k and d+k+g can hurt - if vane guesses correctly; k+g is too slow to be used as an anti evade.
Zoning/Range 4 : A LOT more than DS. Some of them yield combos.
Defense 1 : Nothing.
Wall Game 2 : The same, nothing to write home about, although somewhat better than DS.
Average 2

Formatting is kinda iffy, sorry.

That said, there' something wrong with these categories, i end up with the same score for DS and OS vane. And anyone who's picked up VF5FS vane knows OS feels stronger.

There's surely something missing.

 

Wow, when I read your post, I feel like we're playing a very different character !
Here's my feel about Vanessa... Not saying I am right but I feel like Vanessa is really strong in this game.

Here's some remarks :

DS
Weight : 2
Lightweight character, feels the same weight as Sarah (1 = El Blaze and Aoi).
Mids : 3 (perhaps I am wrong but it's really it's not 1)
She has tons of good mids. Okay, she has no elbows or easy launcher.
But she is not designed that way.
Defense : 4,5
One of the best character for active defense in this games. Very good sabakis (46KP...), some very effective crouch moves and defense moves overall.

OS
Weight :2
Throws : 4
Are we really playing the same game? OS throws are awesome ! 66P+G is probably the best catch throw in the game (range, ring out, and damage cannot be neglected), HCF P+G = 60dmg and backward is still nice damage (50 min, and don't forget about HCB P+G for 25dmg + mix up for more damage...).
Strings : 4
"Ok I guess?" They're way stronger than OK ! They allow to setup some nice moves (9P, evade, backdash into low throw) if opponent 2P, and they're pretty strong on their own too ! And IS mix up are there too...
Anti Yutori : 4
Nothing special? Err... what about 66P+G? 9P? Takedown in strings?
Defense : 2
9P on his own allow for this not to be nothing. One of the best move in the game IMO.


And about wall game, what about pekora's death combo? I feel her wall game isn't THAT bad.

 

@Maxou: oh, i get how the "anti-yutori" category works. I dismissed OS catch throw as a tool to beat turtling sicne it's slow enough to be ducked or low punched on reaction. But if "anti-yutori" means "holding guard + throw direction brainlessly" i guess f,f+p+g is nice. Maybe works even better vs ECTEG, where some of the startup is mitigated?

You're totally right about OS uf+p though, bumps OS "defense" category at least a notch.

I fail to see which OS strings you're talking about though. IS telegraphs and all the decent followups seem high. They're not even good, just decent. Good strings for me would be those that have multiple followups, out of which one yields a float.

Anyway, as you mentioned "Are we really playing the same game?". I don't know. I have yet to understand how VF5FS vanessa is supposed to be played. I'd love to read your own extensive analysis, not just a comment on mine - maybe it would help me understand what i was doing wrong!

@Marly: Assuming crush jaw is consistently 14f, it has no guaranteed followup on CH. Don't get me wrong, i still think it's one of vane's best moves. But it's not most of the cast's 14f elbow > guaranteed followup. Anyway, looking forward to your write up too

 

Ah, okizeme, i knew there was something missing from these categories! I'd say 2 for DS and 3 for OS - just for jump > k!

Also, i'm pretty sure i've seen DS b,f+p+k sabaki high kicks too.

 

Akira should be pretty funny

 

"...but he doesn't have a full circular!"

 

Edited my previous post, I agree Goh's mid game is better than his low game ^^.

But though lows are a little bit slow 2 of them beeing positive on hit and a wall game and hit throw possible with others, they seem quite good to me.