Community Tier Chart

We have to reach a consensus at some point: are lows that knock down on NH better than lows that only knock down on CH? If yes, then everyone with a low that knocks down on NH should rank higher than jacky.

I'm getting tired with this endless discussion. Like i've posted earlier, the only way to deal with this is to rank each character. It's not hard, there are only 20 characters.

Here's what lows would look like if we agreed that 1) tracking moves > linear 2) lows that knock down on NH > KD on CH, 3) lows that float on CH > just KD on CH and 4) crouching lows > standing lows. When characters appear to sahre the same stuff, i ranked them according to which one i remembered as being the fastest and/or more damaging. I can be wrong about this, for example Sarah's d+k+g might deal more damage than eileen's df+p+k. Dunno, this is a draft.

In fact I am surely missing stuff since i don't know all of the characters by heart. This is why i was so excited when i saw Chibitox linking an excel file. I thought: sweet, it's going to be a collaborative effort and that way we'll be thorough, if one VFdc'er forgets something then someone else will fill in the info. But no, we get to post in our forum our opinions so instead instead the thread has degenerated into the habitual bickering. That's a byproduct of not having a functional wiki i guess.

Anyway, proposal following the above 4 rules (obviously if the order of these rules changes, eg. if CH damage were to be considered more important than tracking, then the ranking order would change too):

Character: Lows Commentary
1 Lion : NH circular KD, CH float.
2 Eileen : NH circular KD, CH float.
3 Sarah : NH circular KD, CH float.
4 Kage : NH circular KD, CH float.
5 Shun : NH circular KD, CH ??, d+k.
6 Lau : NH semicircular KD, CH KD.
7 Taka : NH semicircular KD.
8 El Blaze : NH stagger/CH slam, CH circular KD.
9 Wolf : NH stagger/CH slam.
10 Pai : Adv on block CH float, CH (circular) KD.
11 Brad : CH semicircular float, Standing CH circular KD.
12 Goh : CH semicircular hit-throw.
13 Akira : CH float.
14 Aoi : Safe* CH circular KD.
15 Jacky : CH circular KD, CH safe combo KD
16 Jean : Standing CH circular KD, CH float.
17 Vane (D) : Standing CH float, circular.
18 Vane (O) : Standing CH semicircular mount.
19 Lei-Fei : CH KD.
20 Jeffry : CH combo KD.

It could be even better if each commentary, for example "NH circular KD" were accompanied by the input (eg. "d+k+g"), that way we avoid misunderstandings and/or omissions.

 

Not sure anyone's bickering (I certainly am not), and unless I'm mistaken, I thought the whole point of this was to have discussion and share opinions. It's very hard to objectify something like this when different people have different opinions on which things are better than others, which is why discussion occurs. If we're just supposed to post numbers and leave it at that, it seems kind of boring and not engaging, and if there's some set list of rules by which we all must make our judgements, surely there'd been no need for such judgements, and the rules would factually dictate who is better than whom in each situation (much like your list above does).

Seems like the whole point of this was for one person to be able to say, 'I think this, this and this', then for someone else to say 'I disagree and think this, this and this', followed by some discussion, possibly reaching an agreement, else just respecting the differences in opinion.

 

Shun peeps overall seem a bit sleepy.

I'm not too academic so excuse me for some naïveté. My few cents:

Weight: 3

Self-explanatory, no?

Throws:1 - 5

Ok so at 0 dp things aren't rosy, but 6 P+G has some less covered mixups, like 46 P+K, P (base 40 dmg) for side turned pressure. Overall still the worst starting throw game and 6 dp (Chouwan) still needed to boost dmg. At 10 dp things get steamy indeed, with hfb/hcf P+G to worry about, but the dmg (66/variably somewhat more) is not that awsm yet. Even at 16 dp 4 throw does just 69 dmg (around 80 for mid-weights for 6 throw). Even at 20 dp, 6 throw gives just 82 ag Kage (4 gives 71 + 4 dp). At what drink count he gets the High Five rating? Against half decent opponents, 16+ dp is not too common really.

Shun's high wall throw (+ 6 dp) is a lot better than half wall one though. Affects his wall game obviously, a threat indeed.

Strings (mixups): 3

Nice 46 P mixups, 236KKP is OK and some workable stance stuff but not sure how to rate this. Hit checkables galore ie 6K stuff and P+K/46P+K and 15f hit confirmable mid with stance options. Not bad but there is risk too (4P only basic P-string evade beater).

Mids: 3,5

Ok so 15f 6PP allows for experimentation (and second P just -10 on block!) and 3K are good but no 14f mid which sucks. How much it sucks? At range 33P does the job. Slimy 46P, P+K aka 4P, P safe launches. Chouwan at safe 16 f remains as a great (ex_)mid. K+G safe low crush. Then 6K+G ok low crush and delayable 43 P+K, P has uses. Nice 6K is slow but deceiving with cool mids. Steamy other stance mids too. Amazing 18f full circ (-7 on block) at 10 dp and amazing 17f mid launcher (+4 on block)for sober gamble. Shun finally gets safe (-5) 15f mid launcher at 23 dp, forget it really since no-one drinks so much normally.

Good stuff overall, many -6 to -8 though (if that's bad by any means).

Lows: 4,5

Really, 1KK owns your mother. Classic 2K (on block -15) ducks under many mids. Great 1P for range and interruption. Surprising 2K+G sweeps (1, 6 & 7 DPs). Finally, 214 KK (-5 dp) at 10 dp (preferably around 13 dp) murders anything that moves, totally underused gem.

Standing Punish: 2

At +12f PK/PPP(?), at +15f 1P+K is pretty cool depending on drinks (haven't got the dmg potential yet on paper), at +16f KKP before Chouwan (0-5 dp).

Low Punish: 3,5

At +15 6PP or 3KP, 6PP pushes more (and stance options) but both are -1 on hit. At 16f Chouwan but only after 6DP, is the move to go, gives around 75 dmg on mid weights. Before Chouwan 8 K+G deals -21(?) smth sweeps.

RO potential: 4

Dunno, he gets full circ mid at 10 dp (-2 dp). I like delayed 46 P(P, P), P+K (CH) too. Psycho crusher is hot at longer range as is 33P, as is 3P+K (ducks highs). Chouwan push combos are good but need 6dp. KKP exists. That sleazy high crush 43 P+K P is rock solid. Some say Shun's RO is insane, not sure about that yet.

Anti Yutori: 3

Shun's block break is there (+10 only), but I'd rather use his on block mixups like 46 P+K and 6K to choukarou for some steam cooking. Neutral throw is nice compromise too.

Anti Evade:3

As said, Shun gets fuzzyable full circ mid at 10 dp and it costs 2 dp. Sweep is 25 (yikes) and looks like that too. Legendary 1KK covers stomach and K+G / 4P back. Stance work covers evaders well, but lots of non-stance moves are linear though. No amazing evade killers I can think of really, some free drinks ordered by throws anyway?

Zoning/Range: 3

At NH, 33P is +4 (43P+K P chance) and 6P options have nice push too. Not sure about 3P+K non-wall usage but that push is good too, it's chargeable and evades stuff. That pesky 1P just works. Oushin options can get Shun fast away from harm too. Ring control hmmm, I drink I don't ring control... ;-)

Defense: 4

There are some key moves that are more than -5 on block. Soukokukyu sabakis are nice to have and 1P keeps away. Obviously Shun can be played quite safely, just see Fuudo's pressure cooking at Evo12 to see what I mean.

Wall Game: 2

Lotsa setups to get staggers and splashes, but surprisingly weak combo dmg (sitting -> P seems good but who can ever connect it?). Wall throw at high wall is awesome. Delayable Oushin shenanigans, punch strings and crush property moves make sure the bitch stays near the wall though.

 

I liked your write-up, Neo.

I'm curious, as someone largely ignorant of Shun's antics, if you were forced to choose one overarching number for each category, rather than giving various numbers depending on DPs, what would you choose for each of them? Would you be happy simply taking the mean average of your given range, or do you feel that, for example, his 0DP game is more important than his +bajillion DP game (which would lend more weight to the values placed on the lower DP marks)?

I know that a good Shun player can stack up DP quite quickly, and that a very good Shun player can kick one's behind quite aptly without stacking any DP. And then there's the counterpart to that: a good player can stop Shun from stacking DP, and a very good player can beat Shun even when he has a lot of DP.

He's definitely an interesting opponent - the whole DP thing adds a completely additional element to the game (choosing to take lower-damage options in order to knock-off DPs etc).

 

There are definite landmarks that allow for rather mandatory extra options. Namely 6 DP gives an 236 P launcher, 236 KPP and 43P+K, P at 8 dp because they really add to his damage/punishment potential. Then of course 10 DP for sobering moves and throws. It's hard to see Shun without those moves and getting them is top priority.

There are times when a match evolves well enough with near 0 DP. But just winning a round usually give a chance for 4 - 7 DP so I guess 0 DP situation is relatively rare against opponents with remotely similar skill level. But sober fights do happen, so it's a good question should it be rated "just in case".

Shun becomes rather ridiculous character after 20 DPs which mostly happens when opponents have no idea how to counter basic stuff like 66 P+G and 6 P+K and eat. I guess that's not a too realistic rating base either.

At 16 DP Shun finishes his unlockable moves so that's another signpole too. Not sure if it's more realistic than 0 DP though, since sobering and losing (end round drinks) does happen.

In previous games I thought when playing Shun 8 - 10 DPs were pretty good, but in FS the scale seems a lot wider. Should Shun be rated when he has all moves, when he has "essential" moves, when veteran Shun's have average drinks or smth else? I don't know.

Basically at 0 DP Shun is a minor dmg chipping wreck who tries to win a round with severely compromised options. End of a (won) round is important for getting those guaranteed drinks so that more options and mojo stack for next round.

Honestly speaking, I don't have much experience of higher level play that would be beneficial at rating characters.

Yes, the deeply hated/loved powerup-system that actually makes sense.

 

Jacky is bit weak in "anti-yutori" department. K+GK requires you to check stance and is rather risky since it cant be hitchecked effectively.

He can keep grinding safe mids or low backfist but other than that he doesn't really have particularly strong play against lazy TE.

I would give Jacky 2 or 3 for anti-yutori.

(1K+G is a huge risk, considering how safe he otherwise is)

Kage is and has always been, weak in punishment. He is one of the worst punishers in VF imo.

 

The execution time is an important factor to not forget IMO.

 

Why? When I took a glance at his overall tools, his punishment didn't strike me as a glaring weakness of his.
Could you explain and write his punishers frame by frame as a list?
Between i10-i15 Kage doesn't seem bad at all though.

 

I think Elite gave a write-up of Kage a few pages back. Can't remember how in-depth the explanation was.

 

What Elite said about Kage's punishment :

So DPoD at i15 deals very nice damage apart against Taka.
DPoD can be mastered for i15 buffer (not that hard of a JF, it's more the 263 imput that's tricky).
Does that makes his punishment weak?
Between i10-i15 he seems quite strong actually, although he lacks a i14 standing punishment.

But I am in no way a Kage expert although I play against Kage a lot. So I'd like to know what kind of punishment he can deal faced against -16 or more unsafe moves.

 

If you can't DPoD you still have 1P+K for a very guaranteed 47 for -15 with a spice of throws. I didn't remember his DPod, really. The big issue with DPoD IMO is that it easily becomes i16 with even an inch between the characters but I haven't really played enough Kage myself to know it this is really an issue in punishing.
Still better than Lei though.

 

The thing about DPoD is that opponent can exact tech it and basically Kage puts himself into wakeup situation. Same for Dragon punch K. Might even be punishable on hit, Im not sure.

The issue that Combolammas mentioned is a real one I think, how often do you see Kages punishing stuff with DPoD in the videos? I almost never used dragon punch to punish anything, because one mistake and its minus two million.

His -14 mid punish is 6P, right? no followups other than stances.

And as for -16 or more, thats basically it. He doesnt have good normal hit launches that I can remember.. At least ones that are <20 frames fast.

 

I was talking about standing punish, not low punish (so no need to go for i14 mid punishment if your high ones are better).
Interesting, I didn't know that about DPoD, we should study that move more and have more test.
Potentially it deals big damage, but if it's punishable on hit, it's not that good.

Chibitox : you REALLY should separate mix up from strings.

 

DPoD isn't punishable on hit and neither is the easymode version (623P+KK).

The reason I ranked his punishment so low is that he has nothing better for the higher end of the scale. He is good up to +13, maybe one of the best, but has nothing better for +14 (bad) and his +15 is either difficult (DPoD) or weak compared to other characters (1P+K >).

His normal hit launchers are all slow (20 or more), his options for punishing crouched are terrible up to +15 and then bad again when you hit +17 onwards where a lot of characters can launch you easily for more damage.

His whiff punishment is also not great. K+G is big range but slow and the combo isn't huge. 2K+G is fast but no combo. 6K+G would be excellent for this purpose but it is exact techable and the combo isn't guaranteed.

Obviously these are tools you can make work, but we're supposed to be comparing to other characters. He lacks anything like Lau/Goh/Akira 46P or even a move like Jacky's beatknuckle.


I'd also like to chime in and say Jacky has bad lows compared to a lot of the cast. I would be delighted to see my opponent throwing 1K+G at me even semi reguarly. The fact that his mids are great doesn't change what his lows do, and even as anti-yutori (because his mids are good 1K+G will land more is the logic?) you're still giving the opponent the advantage for crappy damage and big risk. Knockdown sweeps shine here since it actually makes them reconsider guarding high. Only place it really shines is near a wall, otherwise he has better options for beating high guard and better options for beating EDC imo.

I do like his SS 2KK and low backfist, but still. No way is he 4/5.

 

Wow I didn't get to see there was so many answers, i didn't get the ususal alerts messages, keep them comings guys.

I’ll try to adress all I’ve seen

I think this is the case of almost most sweeps in the game. However among those sweeps, Jacky’s is the fastest and ducks highs so it’s better than what almost all characters have besides Lion. Or may be I’m missing some other moves that are better ? (real question here no sarcasm)
Other sweeps that KD on normal hit are easier slower (Sarah’s 24 and less range) or semi circular (Lau).
To be totally fair I should say that most standing sweeps like Brad 2K+G will give wall stagger so it’s really hard to say what’s best in the end


I am no Jacky expert, but playing recently against MCJ made me realize his jumping low kick may be one of the best, it's a semi that gives a combo on NH ! I know jumping moves are not as easy to use as standard moves but it makes a nice low for Oki or TR pressure. It should count imo.
To be faire I alo forgot about DS vane jumping K low sweep. It’s basically a better version of her sweep that knocks down on NH, give a combo against the wall and is « only » -16. Again not as practical as a standard move but quite good if used in the right places.

I agree with this.

Also agree. I feel that for some categories like Weight, Throws and punishment can be objectfied (does that exists ?) but it will be a lot harder for others, and that maybe we have to give up. Trying to give a hierarchy of properties for low attacks seems arbitrary for me, it’s hard to justify if tracking is more important than damage. 4 properties seems a bit short (what about range, safe/not safe) but at the same time if we had more it will become a nightmare. I think a mark




About the worst standing punishment :

Aoi seems not that far from being the worst what do you think ?

About Lei punishment : I used to think of him as pretty poor in this category.
K+GP, I see it as a PK with about 10 more damage/ same +4 advantage but slower.
Then I went through a few chars movelist and it appears there are actually very few –11 on block moves. It’s often –13 to let 12f Pers get punishment too. So in a way it is stronger tha PK.
It’s arguable that PK also helps a lot on whiff punish, which will be harder with K+GP due to speed difference.
For –15 he kindah sucks compared to a lot of chars.
For –10 he also sucks cause of « only one strong throw « syndrome.

I think 2 is OK

Now let’s compare with Aoi and Kage
-10 Kage>Aoi>Lei (because TFT kindah makes a free 60pts throw every time)
-11 Kage>Aoi>Lei (but like said above –11 is pretty scarce)
-13 Kage = Lei >Aoi
-15 Kage>Lei=Aoi (theorical Kage gets DPOD, Practical Kage gets what Elite described)
Above : Lei>Kage>Aoi (Lei has easy 9K+G)

Even when blocking those –18 on block standing lows Aoi punish is so so (55ish I guess) which is less than what Kage usually gets from +10.
And when a big move whiffs in front of her she has no 90ish normal hit launcher iirc.
In the end I would say Kage>Lei>Aoi

So may be Aoi=1 Lei=2 Kage=2.5 or 3 ?


@Neonomide : thanks man i’ll update the chart when I get some free time

 

@Maxou: About mixups.

I'm ok if you give me:
-A good definition of what it takes to be good in this category so that it's clear for everyone how to give good/bad marks

-At least 3 chars that should have a bad mark, explaining why. To stay coherent with the chart.

-If more than 3 other people taking part in the chart also think it should be added and post it.

My take on this is:

In this game you get "strong" mixups every time you get a +5/6, which happens all the time and is not unique to any char. The variety and quality of options the characters get in these situations are spread out among the existing categories (throws/mids/lows) in particular.

Other times you get mixups are in strings which is already covered or in throw setups where usually it's at the cost of a loss of guaranteed damage.

What I don't want is a category where everyone would put a 4 or 5. otherwise I'm open to any suggestions

 

I think mix up describes the overall tools of a character to open guard and deal damage in an offensive way (I don't mean defense, which is already covered).

It's different for every characters.
Some have strong throws (Taka, Wolf...), some have very good strings (brad, lei fei...), some have guard break (Akira), some characters have good low, some have a little of everything.

It sometimes has nothing to do with string (exemple : Akira which has crappy strings but good mix up overall).

I understand why you wouldn't want a category where everyone would put a 4/5. But I believe it would be way more precise to separate mix up and strings than group them.
It may be interesting to note that stuff out of 10 instead out of 5 to be more precise. Mix up seems a big deal in VF, so even if it's noted out of 10, I think it would only bring more precision to this theorical tier list.

Exemples :
- Taka should have overall medium mix up score. Throws are everything to him, if he can't throw, he has no way to open guard if opponent evade 33G to the stomach apart from stance pressing and unsafe/risky strings.
BUT on the other hand his throws are very strong and his overall very high damage counter-balance this "low score". Hence a medium score. So I'd probably put a 2,5/5 or a 3/5 on mix up score with Taka.
- Jeffry should have low mix up score. I am not a Jeffry expert, but it seems to me he struggles a bit to deal damage and open guard if he doesn't take risks. Maybe I am wrong.

 

The stagger can be escaped before they can be launched, but with his 1K+G the opponent can't. It also tracks to Brad's back. As for 2K+G, I think it's the most damaging low full circular for its speed (19 frames and 24 damage). I don't think that Brad's lows are all that great, but it's nice stuff like the above that led me to give Brad a 3 for his lows.

 

@Maxou:
There is a misundertsanding, when I wrote "strings (mixups)" it's mixups in strings not mixup game in general. I'm not merging the two aspects

As I said above for me the mixup potential is a mix of mids/Throws/lows with maybe a bit of anti yutori. So a char which have good marks in those categories would have a good mixup game. Hence for me there is no need to had a mixup category.

But I see what you mean in way, it would be a way to see if everything "clips" together, or if there ar holes in the "mixup game". But I feel it's kindah subjective.

 

About the mixups this kind of info interests me ( like evade to stomach 33G about Taka).

I agree with Chibitox mixups are linked to several categories of the chart as soon as you 're at plus.
IMO they seem more often with the chars with stances (ie 4K of Sarah, 6K of Shun): this would be the interesting kind of info to me :
How many options ? are there 3 ? (anti evade, low/throw, mid): can one defensive option can take out 2 of the mixup ?(like for Taka) etc...