Community Tier Chart

Indeed it is linked to several categories !
But since everyone doesn't play every character in the game to at least an average level, I believe the discussion would probably be very interesting and provide a lot of character knowledge.

 

Not sure how I'm going to go about doing this, but I figured that this could be a good start:​

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Character Tools Ranking: 14f Punishment​

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Brad​

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These figures represent the damage of reliable max damage combos. All combo damage values are minor counter (mC) damage:​

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Lightweights and Lion:​

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Closed: 89​

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Open: 80​

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Average: 85​

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Sarah:​

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Closed: 79​

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Open: 80​

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Average: 80​

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Pai:​

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Closed: 75​

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Open: 85​

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Average: 80​

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Middleweights:​

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Open: 80​

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Closed: 71​

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Average: 76​

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Akira, Jacky, and Jean:​

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Open: 71​

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Closed: 71​

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Average: 71​

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Wolf:​

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Open: 59​

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Closed: 64​

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Average: 62​

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Jeffry:​

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Open: 59​

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Closed: 71​

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Average: 65​

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Taka:​

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Open: 58​

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Closed: 58​

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Average: 58​

 

Major Update
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq4G2cgfZ2JwdGg0YmNGc1dBWTlNVmdRU1ZZcTZUbkE#gid=0

I feel we still need to examine Goh's marks
Maybe Brad's too.
Missing chars= Pai and Jeff
I put Lion's marks I'll make a post about them when I have more time (upgraded his throws to 3.5 cause I had totally forgotten his FC6P+G throw)

 

Brad should not have a 4 for RO potential. Make it a 2. I think that a 5 for mids at this point is pretty appropriate also.

Note: I'm thinking in terms of a scale of 1-5 with only whole numbers. Don't get the idea that a 5 represents perfect. Have it represent excellence. That way, Taka can have the same score as the Heavyweights for weight, for instance (5/5). I don't think that we should be too nitpicky. Maybe at the end we can further examine, but I don't think that we should have to take into account marginal differences for the big picture. I think that having too many numbers can lead to confusion.

 

I really like this thread (centralized intel, the lazy me loves it ^^).
@Chibitox: the notes you made in some cells of your personnal chart is a good idea, will there be some in the community one as well ? (and if there's too much info what about some link to another sheet ? for example the anti evade tools if they're semi which way to evade etc...)

 

Posted on behalf of Kamais Ookin:

“Jeffry has no ‘set ups,’ just risky guesses.” - Sebo

If clarification is needed, mistake is found, or debate over a score to be changed – by all means. I have used Lib’s method of 0-5 – fuck the decimals.

Weight – 5

Self-explanatory. Got to say though, weight doesn’t mean shit in this game. Combo damage is sky high regardless in FS…

Throws – 4

65 damage front, 60 back. TBH Jeffry was nerfed from past iterations where I would give him a 5/5 for throws. Still, especially with walls, his throw game still gets the job done. There’s ring out potential from both directions of throws, and over half fence walls with back direction in various angles.

Ground throw gives +8. If they try and evade you can't throw since opponent is too far away so you use k+g full circular. If they try and attack, even a 11f jab won't be fast enough for your knee and you will net a CH too. If they just stand still then you can run up and throw or keep the pressure going with. If they just crouch and hold guard you can run up for a low throw or use 3k+g for half life. If they immediately go for a 2p run up low throw won't work anymore so just 3k+g. If they back dash, use long range moves like 33p, 1k+g or 3k+g.

Strings – 1

Lol. 95% of Jeffry’s strings is mid-high or high-high garbage. This is a critical flaw because many of his strings are meant to be cancelled and instead go straight into threat stance – but the threat stance slap is also a high hit so there’s no mix-up – opponents can 2p with no sweat. On the bright side, most of his strings are highly delayable so it’s possible to catch them in frame traps and such, at least there’s that (reason why I don’t give 0). Lastly, most of these strings are punishable as hell.

I THINK stances fit here too? In that case threat stance is awful. The initial slap should be optional for the purpose of combos, and the fact that it’s a slow linear high with insanely short range is LOL. Another critical flaw with the slap being high is because the strings going into it end at high as it is – so when you opt to use threat stance slap instead of the normal high ending of the string – there’s no mix up. Opponent cans just autopilot 2p regardless. Also even though string into threat stance is guaranteed on NH, it’s impossible to hit-check. So, if you’re lucky and the slap manages to be blocked things are looking up. Once the slap is blocked, 2p won’t beat out threat stance PP combo starter (first hit staggers on crouchers) or the K mid-kick hit-throw (if close to the wall it low splats which allows for an extra 30 damage with 2kp). However – fuck the 2p when slap is blocked – ECDG will beat ALL options, the trump card against Jeffry in general. It’s possible to delay the PP from threat stance but boy oh boy, if you’re not careful and take too long the threat stance animation of Jeffry thumping his chest like a retard can’t be stopped and kage would probably be able to land his flying summersault during that… AFTER he does a stance taunt. Holy shit the threat stance slap landed? You’re in luck now. The full circular K+G from threat stance can’t be ECDG’d anymore so there’s FINALLY a mixup available! But hold on, lets take a closer look. So scared to evade now? No problems. The catch throw was removed and implemented as a wall throw instead. If you just stand still and block, there’s nothing that can break your guard except for p+k, that gives guaranteed pk on block and possibly launcher if you’re garbage at stagger recovery, but so slow that it’s easy to react and evade. Then there’s 1 thing left, the hit throw that works on block - It’s slow and a high though.

Mids – 3

Decent mids. Jeff’s elbow is meh, but he has a 15f fuzzyable poke 2p+k that gives +4 on hit and +7 on CH allowing you to get a free low throw if opponent holds guard. Jeff’s 4k is 14f like his elbow but can hit-check its follow-up on CH with great oki – not to mention it wall splats on CH. 16f mid-kick that knocks down on any hit, long range, safe and splats on wall on any hit is great. Jeff also has 3P+K 16f combo starter but only works on CH. +3 on NH too and it’s safe. I think there are moves similar to this that are better though. Jeff has twin pistons like Taka but can’t be hit-checked so it’s utterly useless. Unfortunately Jeff’s mid that staggers opponent as they back-dash is lacking in range which is the most important part. Has 2 mid half circulars except HCF P is 42f so meh. Other one is 3k+g similar to wolf’s – slow but big damage on hit.

Lows – 1

Lol. Jeffry’s ducking low was removed and given to dural. Now his new ducking low is the standard 1k = -15 on block and -6 on hit. He has 1PP and it instantly makes jeffry duck on the 1st frame so that’s the best part about it. The first part is special low so if they’re standing and holding guard it won’t hit them, only the 2nd part will hit them. It’s extremely slow though so it’s easy to react to. Yes you’re crouching, but do you want to be at -20 after the 2nd one is blocked? Even with the first hit being blocked you’re at -10 which is low throw punishable. Then we have 2K+G which is a standing low with shitty range and slow as hell. The good thing about it is the deceptive animation making it so people have trouble guarding it sometimes, and it’s -13 (could have been worst) on block with decent advantages on hit.

Standing punish – 1 (open to 2 if community deems so)

One of the worst in the game, if not the worst. Everything is shit until -16+ for opponents. There’s no combo opportunities at -15 and below – just 35-40~ dmg. EXCEPTION – with a good ol’ wall at Jeffry’s disposal he can make something happen. Aka combos after 6pp, 4kp or RO if there’s no wall in a forward direction or left/right direction with 4kp (stance specific). Finally at -16 Jeffry can do decent damage. At +17 he can use his launcher.

Low Punish – 4

Here Jeffry has 3 low throw directions to choose from and he can launch for big damage with his knee.

RO potential – 4

Throws from both directions can RO, ground throw can ring out too. Jeff’s 4p+k, 3k, k, hammer ending on some strings for half fence walls, and a few moves that knock back too.

Anti-Yutori – 2

Jeff has a 1p+k that is slow as hell at 25f but it gives a standing half-circular low, linear combo starter mid, and high catch throw option. All these options provide decent damage. However, standing low blocked makes you -16 and that’s not good at all. The mid punch combo starter is fuzzy on block but it’s slow so if evaded you’re eating something. Besides that, there’s the standard throws, Jeff’s slow 2k+g standing low, his fully charged HCF P that is unblockable and provides a huge damage combo but executes at 65 frames and the recovery is ghastly. There’s a hit throw that works on block but it has to come from threat stance and it’s a linear slow high – good luck landing that one.

Anti-Evade – 4

On paper, Jeff’s anti-evade looks like top 3 in the game minimum, unfortunately the reality is they’re just too slow. ECDG is the Jeffry-killer. So, these slower circulars only reliably work in oki situations, if your opponent is heavily disadvantaged, or if your opponent is terrible. What do we have? 3k+g, a half circular mid, and 46p, half circular special high, both opposite directions – both half-life combo. There’s also Jeff’s high full circular that does a whopping 67dmg or so on CH, knocks down on any hit, and splats on wall! In terms of circulars that can’t be ECDG’d we have Jeff's standing kick that cover’s his front with combos on any hit and does good damage. On Jeff’s back we have imo the best string to go into threat stance since it’s an actual mix-up of 4pk high mid or 4p into threat stance high high guessing game. 4pk offers good frames and is highly delayable and pushes back on hit. Unfortunately Jeff’s circular low was removed and ofc he has no sweeps.

Zoning/Range – 4

Jeff has a lot of moves with high range, mainly 3k, 1k+g combo starter, 2k toe kick into splash mountain, 33p -13 launcher etc. Many of these moves have poor recovery however so it’s not something to just play around with randomly. In terms of closing in the distance, I like 66pp which is a dashing elbow string essentially that staggers on crouch. Jeff’s 43p+k is slow but good range and guaranteed low throw on CH which is nice and easy to hit-check.

Defence – 0 (1 if not allowed to use 0)

Jeff never been known for defence, just have to use game system fundamentals. They experimented in VF5R by giving Jeffry a low killer but it was removed for some reason in this iteration.

Wall Game – 5

This is where Jeffry goes from a shitty character to a decent one; it’s all about the walls. It’s really easy to stagger/splat opponent to the wall with Jeffry’s move list and his wall combo’s are easy to do at high damage with TERRIFIC oki. Jeff can get like close to 100dmg or so with his back throw on a wall as well. Also with spacing training you can do his beefy wall combos from a distance by knocking them down with 6pp for example but that’s more advanced.

Side Pressure – 2

Meh. Great stuff can come out of opponents abaring while they’re side turned – but you’re not supposed to abare in side-turned so on that note, there’s nothing special about the side pressure game here. They won’t be able to ECDG anymore at side-turned so you can throw out one of Jeff’s big circulars, and if they just stand there and block (which is what you should do against Jeff) can throw out standing low 2k+g. A special note is if opponent 2p’s in side turned and you land CH (2)3pp you can use 46p and it special high will beat it at +9.

Okizeme – 5

Excellent. With some self-discipline and dojo training, it becomes not very hard to time Jeff’s 6k+g to crush rising attacks for 100+ damage guaranteed, and there is a decent amount of active frames on Jeff’s 66p+k hit-throw as well for 70~ damage. Oki is also the best time to use Jeff’s awesome slow circulars for the big damage too. Even threat stance becomes better at oki as they’re forced to make decisions whereas it’s easy to avoid in a non-oki situation.

 

We are close to have the chart completed !

May be we can go through some categories and try to see if it’s coherent.

Let’s start with standing punish, from the different polls we got :

5 : Brad
4.5 : OS Vane
4 : Akira, Lau, Wolf
3.5 : Taka
3 : Eileen,, Lion, Jean, Sarah
2.5: Jacky, Kage
2 : El Blaze, Lei Fei, Shun
1 :Aoi, DS Vane, Jeffry


What about Goh ?, I think he is a 4 or 5,: he has super throws, PK, 46P. Maybe he needs a 16/17 frame high damage NH lancher to be a 5.

I see a problem with Taka, for me he should be 4 or 5 :
80/80 throw is applicable from –10, makes his lack of PK not really important. If he wants guaranteed damage for the kill PPP does the job. Like Kage there are times where HCB has to be broken giving him a free HCF. And he has a good combo on –15 and an even better on –16. For big whiffs 33P+K does very big damage too. If you compare with chars at 4 or 5 it’s more or less the same except he has way stronger throws.

What about Wolf does he belong to 4 ? what the damage on 4P like?

Also Blaze a bit low,. He has strong throws, a PK and a –13 specific string iirc. He gets shadow hammer combos from –14/-15 which give good damage Then he got 6K for big whiffs. He’s definitely not a 2 for me, more like a 4.

Does this ranking seems Ok to everyone ?

Is Jeffry that bad ?

Other topics :
Kingo could you help us with Pai ? J

@Nowhere about notes : Good idea, if people are Ok I could compile comments made here and put them in the notes.

Sorry if I don’t keep track of every remark, I often do that stuff at work, I try to be exhaustive but may forget some things.

For sideturned and Oki categories, let’s finish this firts version chart first then we can add them to the mix.

@Lib & Feck : I'm interested in the Brad/Akira mids comparison you told me about in the shoutbox

 

Goh 4k hit throw is about best he gets at +17, does about 76 on mC iirc. Not great damage for light/mid weights but beyond that 76 is pretty decent.

I'll go through the mids with Lib tonight via PM if he's around, then we can post what we find here.

 

Yes Goh's 4K P+G is what you have at +17, but I think it's 71 damage (59 NH), still decent you're right, adding the reach of it.
I don't know if he can get a 5 for standing punish, the overall damages of Brad seems higher (stance dependant though).

 

I would agree with the 3 or 4 ( but honestly I don't really care about grades ^^);
the difficult thing is to judge the strenght of the punishment only with the garanteed damage there is the mix up with the possible follow up too (for example Goh +13 = PK BT game or Lau's Kokei).

 

You pretty much said what I was thinking.

About Goh :
For -13 he gets to use PK or gamble a throw, usually chars that have specific 13f punish don't get THAT much more damage than what PK would have done do they ? And the neutral throw approximatevely deals same damage as those 13f strings and is pretty much guaranteed for Goh so lack of -13 is really not that bad imo. I would even say I prefer to have Goh rather than Eileen in -10 to -13 situations even though she has a 13f punish but thats subjective I’ll admit ^^.

The fact that he lacks real big damage on NH until +19 is indeed his main issue. Let’s give him a 3.5 then ^^

As you said Blaze lacks nothing, he should be a 4 at least, all it takes is mastering shadow hammer input to make it 15f, so it’s not as easy as spamming P+K with Taka but no DpoD either. 6K combos do good damage but I think it’s not on par with Brad or OS Vane knee combos iirc.

How much for Wolf then
What about Taka ?

 

This is where I lost you, who has ?

 

The problem with Wolf's 4P is that all the good comboes work only from open stance. From open stance damage from 4P is about mid 60 to 70 on average, he get's better comboes on lightweights and the lighter midweights. But from closed and/or hevier midweight/heavy opponent, damage is only about 56-60. We can compare this to the likes of Taka who get's 65 against everyone except Taka himself and increases against lightweights to over 70.

 

Are we sticking with the "Mixups" category?

If so, could someone explain how Sarah is marked as a 2? Or did we merge that with the "Strings" category? As Sarah's strings are but her mixups are .

 

@ Marly you said it: The big punishment values are what a character gets at -10,-13, -15 and -17/18+

-10: Taka = best in the game with wolf

-13: no 13f string but PPP or very strong throw guessing game

-15: P+K combos = the non optimized un-droppable combo must be 70 and works on everyone besides Taka and Wolf, the ligweights one = around 80 on mC= may be only brad does more damage. Carry is not bad too.

-17/18: 4P+KP for easy 80-ish on mC and good carry
or
33P+K for among 80-95 ish on mC and exellent carry


He is not THE best at -13 but otherwise he pretty much is TOP 5 everytime and probably the best at –10.

Wolf is NOT the same he is a tiny bit behind at –10, not as strong at –15 and not as strong at +16 to 17/18.
Only thing I see that is better imo is PK, but it’s not that important considering what Taka's options are.


@ToyDingo: strings (mixups) = strings and their mixups.
Overall mixup game is something different, read my posts a page back, I explained my point of view.
If people feel it needs a category of its own we will add it, but for now let's try to finish this chart version first

 

^^ Cool, agreed...

 

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Here's Akira's 14f punisher.

mC

Eileen/Blaze

82

Aoi

85

Lion/Sarah/Vane/Pai

81 closed

78 both

Average: 80

Shun

78

Lei/Brad/Goh

75 closed

74 both

Average: 75

Lau

75

Kage/Jacky/Jean/Akira

74

Wolf/Jeff

68 open

64 both

Average: 66

Taka

62 open

57 both

Average: 60

Total Average = 76