Counters/Reversals with Vanessa

Vanessa isn't popular in the states because she's so complicated. Grapplers are expert characters anyways regardless of who they are, and her double stances only make her more complicated.

Interestingly enough that's why i like her; her variety. You might want to play with Lau first. As dull as he is, he's also great to learn the fundamentals with.

 

As far as the opening post is concerned, Vanessa is my sub and she's quite the looker... 0_0

I use her reversals about one every 10 games... Maybe more depending on my opponnent's stupidity. Btw, I've fought silent9ight with my Akira. I'd say his Pai is good, but I haven't fought enough 'pro pai's' to make a fair judgement. 9/10 Pais I fight are retards who I can just Sabaki / Neutral counter all day long and the 1/10 is silent9ight... 0_0

I'll add you to my buddy list. Yukinari Sasaki... I've got a Vanessa that needs serious work. I win with her about 25% of the time as I do Akira, it's just I spend that much time on Akira and his [owchie] power hits and Vanessa is more for 0_0 yeah, I lookin' good factor...

That and Vale Tudo is practically MMA and looks 'useful' in fights. Baji I'd say would be the other 'useful' art in that at grappling range, it'll put many elbow sized holes in your opponent... ^_^

 

The thing about intruder stance and many stances like it is that it becomes dangerous if your opponent doesn't see it immediately and jab you out..They are forced into a mixup between a mid and a throw...


I like to pull it out when I have a feel for when the opponent gets on the defensive....

My favorite way to enter IS is right after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, because I only use that when I know the opponent is trying to side step..then I immediately cancel the kick while they're crying over their failed evade, and mix it up...

I usually start with the catch throw in to takedown..then the subsequent times I delay and just launch them...

 

im just breaking the seal on ranked matches.. im 16 and 8 after tonight.. doin pretty good against anyone similar ranked (6kyu) up till 5 or 6 dan.. right around there i start gettin crushed 3 rounds straight..

i use mid reversals most of the time.. most ppl dont kick high too often so i just let her neutral reversal catch the punches as often as possible, half the time i forget to press a button so she just says 'well' and lets go.. i can get 1 a round if i plan it right.. i catch mids a lot tho, most ppl throw mids after blocking or when they panic and dont wanna throw highs..

i wish there was a low reversal.. not having a low reversal makes that low jab so effective, especially with the latency.. after living in quest mode offline i really notice any time the lag kicks in ..

i was watching the vids in the vanessa theater thread.. wow.. my ness is no where near the ones in those vids.. i added you a few min ago.. drop me an invite if you wanna work out some.. i dont see many vane players in ranked or player matches.. mostly akiras, jackies, and pais..

vale tudo seems pretty slick to me.. the mma comparison is pretty valid but mma isnt a style by itself.. mixed martial arts cant be counted as an art form alone, basically because you have to study a 'mix' of 'martial arts' as opposed to studying one style..

i like watching mma fights but i really dont like it when those guys call them selves mixed martial artists.. 90% of those so called artists have really shaky takedown games, mediocre ground and sub work and id outside the heavyweight class maybe 5% have real knock out power..

at least vale tudo has a name.. id study something like that if i wasnt taking judo already.. surprising how effective judo is, after a few classes its obvious a lot of mma fighters are not working on their takedowns and submissions enough..

 

Vane might not have a low reversal per se, but if it's low punches you're worried about, she has + It might not be a reversal per se but, on the other hand, the frame window is bigger and more forgiving.

Not that i use it though, i'm your regular whore

EDIT 8 may 2015: I consciously made an effort to change this bad habit and, by the end of VF5 vanilla's life cycle, i had almost completely phased out DS , substituting it with the above mentioned reversal, low punch and fuzzy guard.

 

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is better than any low reversal. In case you forgot, there's no 'whiffing' it since it strikes the foe whether they attack or not AND IT STOPS HIGH ATTACKS! something low reversals can't...

 

If I had one dime for every fight I lost because I failed to apply /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

 

On Intruder Step: I've found it pretty useful to use it when expecting the opponent to tech after a knockdown/combo, i.e. while they recover from (DS)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

A lot of the time, they tend to freeze up, and I can either go for the takedown if they're just standing there guarding/evading, or go for the launch/kick if I think they might try something. I'm still surprised at how much I get away with in that situation... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

On Sabakis: If an opponent is getting predictable, you can set up situations where you purposely put yourself at disadvantage (after an attack is guarded) then slam out the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif depending on how they tend to react to you. If they don't get the message (which I've had happen a few times) sometimes you can get them with another sabaki only moments later. It's more psychological damage than anything else /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

im trying to make /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif my new bad habit.. sometimes i forget im in OS tho and end up usind a low /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif my mistake tho..

im still working on when to use the Intruder step.. im making a lot of mistakes tryin moves and learning the hard way.. a lot more effective gettin in a room with a good vane and asking questions..

 

I don't find intruder step to be useful. Against 'careful' foes who try to react, it actually works quite well, but against people with any sense of yomi, they'll break your skull when you try to intruder step their personal space.

I'd say spam intruder step on those who turtle but if they're highly offensive, then refrain from it. Are there any 'safe' low risk moves from it? I don't remember which intruder step attacks are safe when blocked...

 

All of the intruder step attacks are safe.

Intruder Step is so slow, i don't see how you can consider it spammable. Unless you consider you can also "spam" something like .

The opponent mustn't necessarily possess good yomi, just good reaction to elbow you out of it.

...And all of this is totally unrelated to the thread which is supposed to be about reversals and sabakis.

 

using reversals pretty regularly now.. trying to pick off mids mostly; Offensive moves, after lows and any part of a combo especially the first punch.. highs are hit or miss (no pun intented i suppose} but i prefer mids just cause..

1+p is my new best friend, use it with dazzling success against pai, not so dramatic against anyone else.. i dont use high reversals much and but reversing mids cuts into the juggle game so i try that when im not 1+punching

amen.. j/k

im tryin to implement the intruder step; easy to do now, trying to find the right time.. gotta make em respect the kick first, otherwise i get mashed outta the roll..

 

I have been playing Vanessa on and off for about a year. I dont play online I usually play with a core group of friends. I was just wondering what you all thought of Van's counters. I play against Auvii a lot (he plays Jacky), an I usually am able to really lay out about 2-3 counters per round against him, but its only because I know how to play against him.

Problem is countering has become a habit for me. I tried playing online and I catch myself trying to counter a lot rather then just blocking and punishing. I get destroyed because of the failed counters. I also need to get this side stepping thing down.

Should I continue to keep countering or scrap it and really get into blocking/side stepping? Also I play defensive stance exclusively, am I missing out on anything by going that route or should I start mixing it up?

 

I told him 100x over BASICS!

 

Countering shouldn't ever be a large part of your offense. If an opponent is being overly repetitive then you can use it to make them pay, but other than that you probably have better options in that situation. Ones that are much safer to throw out.

I run into SOOOOOOO many people who won't stop reversing online. Once your opponent knows you're trying to counter his moves he can delay his attacks, use attacks you can't reverse(Knees, double hands, head attacks, circular kicks, etc.) It will get you killed, undoubtedly.

Although make sure you keep reversals and stance in mind. If you're near the edge and they throw out a mid kick you could possibly ring them out if you reverse it, not a recommended tactic though.


You can prefer to play in defensive, but you're missing out by not fully understanding your character. It's also much harder to punish big moves in defensive.

 

Yeh I have seen vids of acebreaker and kurita using both stances. I have yet to really get OS. I dont know a lot about it despite reading the posts on it. But so far I have yet to win a match using only off stance. I get worked when I use it.

 

You sound like my friend Jamie who onl;y [plays defensively in any game EVER.

It's really annoying frankly, I don't have any problems beating him whatsoever but it makes for boring games as I know exactly how we will play every single round of every single game.

Have any of you played a game on the PS2 called "Way of the Samurai"?

When you attack or defend an attack you can add three sorts of pressure: Push, Pull and none.

If they push and you pull, you have advantage over them.

If they push and you stand still they have advantage over you.

If they pull and you stand still you have advantage over them.

Rock paper scissors.

But Jamie's problem is that he only ever pulls or stands still because "pushing" is offensive.

So all i Really have to do is stand still when I attack or block because I know I will either be neutral or at an advantage.

Thus destroying literally a third of their system.

Not to mention I spanked him at the game on my first try after him playing it for three years just because of the way he plays.

And it's not just that, he never makes the first attack.

Because then he would be the "instigator" of the violence.

So I can easily run in and grab him every single time at the beginning of a round.

He doesn't work juggles and guaranteed slam damage because it's "cheap" owing to the other player not being able to defend themself.

And he won't attack anyone who has; Sheathed their weapon, is lying down or has their back turned.

I can win in Tekken by choosing Lei, running in and grabbing him then lying on the floor.

In DOA he counters more or less non stop. All I have to do is poke him once and then grab. I have tried explaining to him how he is so easy to read. But it goes in one ear and out the other.

All of this stems with an unhealthy obssession with the Japanese and more specifically the Samurai.

He is the perfect example of a scrub.

Not to mention he cries cheap whenever I perform an unblockable attack or hit him when he is on the ground.


And it's not just fighting games.

You haven't heard such a moaner when it comes to a game of Halo.

We were playing Halo: Combat Evolved last week and anytime I killed him with anything other than the pistol I was being cheap.

But frankly he can't use the pistol to save himself so everytime we have a pistol duel I give him a swift ass kicking and send him on his way. Oh, and he also doesn't use anything other than the pistol or assault rifle in Halo as everything else is "cheap".

Ugh....he pisses me off sometimes you know.

 

^VERY funny^

I have the opposite problem... I have a friend who comes over to play sometimes and he refuses to block ever, I mean EVER! If he is using Aoi he will purposely only every reverse if knows you're going to attack because blocking is too passive. Furthermore, he has no understanding of advantage or disadvantage so he just keeps attacking always.

Throwing is out of the question, you can't throw him because he will not defend himself by blocking, ever. He will throw you though because he knows I will have to block his relentless assault. He's easy ass hell to beat but in a way that makes the game really boring. I can just play a frames-only based game and destroy him every time but it's not very entertaining. As soon as I start doing it he's like, "what the hell, how did that hit me?" and I just say, "learn to block" but it doesn't matter.

So basically, I will pick a character I never use to try to make it even, but it doesn't really matter because he doesn't understand the fundamentals of the game AT ALL. Yet, he still claims to be "sick at fighting games" and maintains that if he owned the game he would whoop my ass. I just don't believe it because if I were him, and I went to his crib to play him in a game I don't play much, I would certainly block. Especially if there was a whole button just for "blocking" and it was one of only three buttons in the whole game...

 

Gonna go ahead and say I am better those those 2 guys that were mentioned on the above posts. I side step, I just have not mastered it to the point where it has become second nature. I am still quite confused about the advantages and disadvantages. I just recently started doing more various throws, but I still have that nasty counter thing. I also need to stop with wake up attacks because Auvii rapes me when I do them. All in all I think I just need to start really playing against other people besides Auvii, getting constantly punished for failed counter attempts should speed up the learning process.

 

i used to have the same problem you have kryptonix; i tried to reverse attacks way too often till i learned blocking and defensive moves are usually much better options.. unlike doa4, the window for reversals in VF5 is ridiculously small so I limit my reversal attempts (with Vane) to mid level, non-circular blockable attacks. i usually reverse rising mid attacks after a low punch.. if an opponent is abusing a reversible mid ill give it a try to discourage them.

In DS, a neutral Vane catches quick high and mid punches anyway. Why bother trying to catch those button mashes and set myself up for a throw or major damage.. A lot of highs can be ducked or low punched anyway so again, why risk a high reversal and get punished

The defensive elbow! 1+P... i think its Vane's most important move.. stops a lot of highs, lows and can break some grab attempts (someone else will have to explain why/how.. it just happens sometimes).. it really forces your opponent to throw mids (which might be reversible) or DM (throw'em)..

i prefer to fight one person for several matches but its probably the worst thing for me.. im really competitive with ppl i regularly play with but in random encounters im always surprised how different ppl fight with the same character..

try to block more, im only 2 steps further down this road but it doesnt get easier get reversals.. eventually youll try them less often, but your attempts will be more successful..