Defensive play?

I am going to make a new character, and was wondering if it is possible to win matches entirely by defense. Defensive play only, counters, reversals, etc. Or is this entirely unorthodox form of VF?
Any tips on defensive play too?
Just wondering about this, I know Im probably not the first person to come up with this though. Thanks for your help.

 

It's hard to define defensive play, but if you define it as using nothing but guaranteed counterattacks to blocked moves (minor counters) and reversals (grabbing their incoming attack)... then no. Good players tend to throw out moves that have no guaranteed counterattack (or only guarantee an escapable throw). Moves like a basic high punch not only have no counterattack, the attacker has a slight advantage even if it's blocked.
Winning with reversals vs. a good player is pretty much impossible, once he figures out you plan on blocking and reversing the whole round, he'll dash in and throw.


now if you add d+P as a valid "Defensive" tactic, then yeah, I think using guarding techniques, dodge, and low punch combined with intelligent counters is a doable way to win. It's hard for me to picture someone winning without offensive flowcharts though... forcing a strong guessing game on your enemy is much more rewarding (for example: using a big float tool like a knee to interrupt their attack = 40% damage)..

If you want to learn more about defensive play, check out the posts that talk about fuzzy guard, DTE-G, E-DTE-G, R-DTE-G, and stepping with multiple backwards crouch dashes. A term commonly applied to very defensive players is 'machi' meaning Wait.

 

I think I over said the defensive play a little. What I meant was that you block a lot then throw in small attacks and throws, etc. I dont have characters that use reversals (outside of Wolf's 3, but I dont use them anyways). I was thinking about using Jacky and Wolf primarily.

What I meant was blocking the opponent for a while, then throwing in small attacks (such as Jacky's , , etc) Following a string of attacks, such as then quickly low kicking/punching. This way, I think you would get a few counter hits, in which Jacky's moves are powerful in counters. Like his hitting on a counter, the opponent would stagger, allowing a good combo.

This is what I mean by defensive play. But thanks for your input CreeD, it was helpful on my quest...

 

that being said, you might want to reconsider what you mean by small attacks... jacky's f+K is a big attack by VF standards... what you're describing is more how good players play anyway - poking.

The basic method of playing I recommend: Use P, d+P, and f+P elbows to harrass the enemy until you have a clear advantage (like the jabs interrupt their attack, or the f+P staggers them). Then go for a throw. When they prove they can get out of p -> throw and d+P -> throw and f+P -> throw.... that's when you whip out the big attacks to mix things up... for example f+P (they're staggered) -> f+K (they anticipated a throw and tried an escape, so the knee floats them) -> combo.

oh, PS: When you poke with basic high punchs, always hold forward on the stick. You have longer reach. If almost anyone does a high punch and it interrupts the enemy's attack (you'll see a yellow flash) - a throw attempt will get them. They must enter a throw escape to avoid it. This is true of most characters, but especially the wrestlers.

 

I see where your going. I guess I have trouble explaining what I mean. But I'll try to encompass all these tactics into one tactic that is basically universal.

Sorry if I am getting annoying, I just have trouble explaining what I mean.

 

LtTitan: I only use f+p(elbow), high punch, low punch, knee, and timed beatknuckles... You can win with only these moves...You just have to get tough defensively to utilize them properly. Try just defending and throwing, recognizing every "Throw Counterable" move. Any move that is -8 or more gives a garaunteed throw i.e. Jacky's knee. Good luck with your practice.

 

you talk more and more like Andy. What happened to the B1 in the gatherings?

 

Just to give voice to a different concept:

since you mentioned Wolf, I think it's important to realize that while characters like Jacky are indeed speedy and use quick combinations well to chip away the the oppt; Wolf is a power character, and should be treated as such if you want to unlock his true potential.

Sure, Wolf's P and low P are good, but when I play Wolf, I'm usually thinking about how I can make almost half of the oppt's life bar vanish in an instant. While I might use a P to set that up, it's the huge damage move I'm interested in, and the poke is just a means to and end. I think the best players are eventually able to use less and less pokes, and know when they can just get the moves off without having to set them up as much.

Sometimes using pokes can actually work to your disadvantage. If you get into the habit of following a poke with certain moves, you'll be showing your oppt what you're gonna do next, and they can defend properly. If you just go for your throw or attack with no set-up, you have the element of suprise and pressure on your side. I used to use P-SDE a lot with Akira, and while it's still okay against some people, it's basically working against me now, and a well timed SDE by itself usually works better. But to further my argument, I'd rather land a dodge-bodycheck for 80 points anyday, and listen to the groans from my oppts /versus/images/icons/wink.gif. No one ever cried out load from getting nailed with a well-timed elbow or P.

In VF, High Risk=High Reward, and it's long been my opinion that extremely defensive play is the hallmark of an intermediate player, not an expert. Just my opinion.

Spotlite

PS I think Wolf's reversals are great, and should be used. You might be suprised just how many moves are actually middle kicks, and low P's are in no shortage.

 

hahah that's the blonde1 I saw... dude didn't even elbow-backfist!
He did use PPb+P,K though and loads of reverse crouch dash into P+K,P combos.

But no, seriously, I think that's the number one disadvantage people coming into the series now have compared to people who have been playing since 2... defensive instincts. Offensive instincts come easy, anyone can enforce an attack-or-throw guessing game on someone else. So it's good to see someone looking to learn defensive.

 

I dont actually play Wolf defensively. I usually go offensively, blocking certain moves, then going for a throw or shoulder ram. If I am down in health I go all out offense, using striking tactics I learned in the early days of my first time playing VF4, it surprises me how well it has worked. But I have lately been trying to use Jacky more and trying that with a few good strikes. With Wolf I always use the same basic tactics.

Things that I basically use with Wolf -
+ -> -> -> + on lightweights
on middle weights I use one less and on heavy weights I just go straight to the shoulder ram.
and the + -> -> ++
I mainly only use the Giant Swing and Lariot, and KS for throws, and I try to use the Stiener Screwdriver, but I have trouble with the part (any advice?).
I also try the when I can and try to get a counter on it.
And what is the difference between Wolf's Shoulder Ram and his Knee?(I have found that the Shoulder Ram seems to be better for air combos, and combos and to end a combo) And the Steiner Screwdriver and the Jackhammer.
But Wolf uses different tactics from Jacky when you get down to it. Jacky is basically an offensive character, but to use him in an unorthadox way would throw off the opponent (human that is). But I was trying to emphasis a waiting game more than just attacking. Though if I were to stagger my opponent then go in and go on offense.

This is just my way of thinking and playing. Sorry if it got long or didnt make sense.

 

I think you need to sit down and organise yourself a flowchart. Write down on paper your initial poking moves and what should follow. I advise you add some hits to your upper-weight class combos ( i.e. Knee, , SH on heavyweights is a must ). Also add some +, finishers to your combos to set up TR Okizeme. As for knee vs. SS, the short shoulder does give a slight amount of leaway concerning combos but the knee has the uncanny ability to interrupt your opps. move ( i.e. rising attack ) and has the benefit of being able to hop over alot of low attacks which usually leads to a guaranteed low throw or low punch cut. There are very few Wolf combos that necessiraly need a SS as opposed to the knee to work. Both are fine. You can negate the SS's advantage in ( almost ) any [] combo by HOLDING Forward on each so that you can execute your SS, [], [], SS fairly easily on any midweight.

Driver and jackhammer are for ring positioning. Follow the jack with a + ( backkick ) to warp through your opp. and setup some oki.

And its +, /+, ++.
You might wanna try +, , ++.

Any Wolf combo question or comment should be back referenced to the combo FAQ before being posted.

 

Im not having any trouble with Wolf's moves or anything, what Im doing seems to be working for me. But your moves would benefit my gameplay it would seem. But I have a few questions about your wording...

What is TR Okizeme, and I dont know anything about the [] and oki. I just dont know the termanology.

You seem to know your Wolf stuff, maybe you could give me some tips or advice later. But thanks for your input, excluding the terms I didnt know, it was helpful.

 

Some other very basic wolf advice:

Your best combo for everyone is knee (or b,f+P+K, they're pretty much the same but b,f+P+K can't be reversed) --> P --> b+P --> u+P... it's easy to do and the most damaging knee/shrm combo wolf has, within a few points. (you can land an extra punch vs. light opponents, i.e. girls... and you should skip the punch against jeff and wolf and maybe akira).

For throws, HCB+P+G,P+G,u+P is my favorite. It's an assured 75 points while HCF+P+G is 60 if the opponent has the skill to tech roll it correctly. (there's a fast version of HCF+P+G but it's hard to do).
As a good secondary throw, the 720(KS) is a little harder to whip out on demand, but is more damaging by five points. For a third option, df df+P+G is awesome. If you're having trouble doing it... yeesh I dunno, try to hit exactly and practice. It's nice because you can do , ,,, ... in other words you can crouch dash, keep holding DF for a split second, and then press P+G, and the SSD will come out. You might have an easier time learning it by doing it that way.

Wolf flowcharts are cool and I'll leave white to outline his favorites.

The basic offensive strategy that works vs. humans better than the CPU is to hold forward and press punch to do a long range jab, then mix up f+K, or a throw, or db+P (elbow). It's a pretty bland way to approach, but it's very safe and effective. If the punch hits and interrupted them, the throw is guaranteed. If they blocked it, I recommend trying for a knee, elbow, or b,f+P+K.

Vs. humans, d+P+K is very strong. A typical flow chart with that is F+P (your jab makes them flinch and immediately low punch) -> d+PK (your low punch reversal grabs it). You can also do d+P, then d+P+K... a lot of people will low punch automatically when they see you do it.

If your opponent does a move and is just a little too far away, and it whiffed... try b+P as a simple counterattack you can do on reflex to punish the whiffed attack. This applies to attacks that whiff and have a bit of recovery to them, such as a sidekick.. not attacks that whiff and recover almost instantly, like a punch. And the b+P won't hit if they did a low attack. If you block an attack and are fairly close to the opponent, b+P will also nail people who like to use b,b to backdash away from you. More advanced opponents will use db,db to crouch dash away, or will dodge... in which case b+P will whiff. Still, sharpen up your reflexes and try to punish moves with b+P because it's pretty quick and if it hits, u+P is guaranteed and total damage is 45ish points... pretty decent.

Don't forget wolf's f,d+K from long range vs. opponents who like to approach with long range attacks (like akira's elbows and palms, lau's lunging knife, kage's PPb+P, etc) ... if it knocks down, u+P is guaranteed and that's 55 pts... 1/4th of their life for a pretty quick sweep-type move, though it's easily punished if it misses.

If you block a somewhat slow recovery move, like a knee, wolf's PPf+P is guaranteed and is also a nice chunk of life, 49 points or about 1/4th of their bar. It's these little chunks of 20% here and 30% there that can win the match for wolf, evenif you don't find an opening to throw or combo.

 

I don't think the throw is guaranteed after a MC p...
At least you CANNOT buffer in a throw and expect to nail
the opponent with it as he is still in hit stun

 

Thanks CreeD, thats very helpful. I'll try to get in touch with Mr. White or consult his guide. But as for the + I have been able to do this more on command than I used to, but only from the right side, since my thumb hits the buttons easier for the left on the D-Pad. And the KS, I can pretty much do this on command, if I dont, I usually get some type of throw anyway. If I miss the part, I would get the Giant Swing. And the Giant Swing can do 60,80, or 100 damage, how does it determine which damage it does, because you could get 80 damage more easily thank the KS.
I have also tried the Knee --> P --> b+P --> u+P but I havent been able to get it to work. But I have some others so its not imperative that I get that move that soon.
But thanks for your help on this subject, it has done a great deal for my gameplay.

 

I don't think the throw is guaranteed after a MC p...
At least you CANNOT buffer in a throw and expect to nail
the opponent with it as he is still in hit stun

You're right about the buffered throw, wolf and jeff's punches stun so much that they actually have to wait a couple of frames before they're allowed to throw, while other characters barely get the frames they need for a throw.

So my thinking was that by waiting a frame or two and then throwing, or by doing wolf's GS, you would get a throw every time because of the slight delay. It turns out I was wrong.

MC attack - throws are *never* guaranteed for *anyone* it turns out.
I feel sort of dumb for not knowing this earlier, is this common knowledge?!

I always thought +8 frame advantage meant a guaranteed throw every time, and no matter how hard they mashed the buttons, they couldn't escape it. I based this on the fact that in older VF games, if you throw and your opponent attacks on the exact same frame, the throw wins. Now though that's different... if you're +8 and throw as soon as possible, and the opponent mashes punch, their punch wins. The same is true even if you're +9, because like you said, a buffered throw whiffs there while the opponent is still technically in hitstun.
There is no middle situation where they can be thrown... they are either stunned, and the game engine doesn't allow the throw, or they are not stunned and capable of using attacks to beat the throw.

So anyway, to ltTitan: The bottom line is P -> throw is still a very good strategy, but it isn't a combo. It works well though because if the opponent hesitates for even 1/60th of a second the throw will work.
If they have awesome reflexes and start pounding on attack buttons when they recognize that you just landed a punch interrupt... then you can switch up and do F+P --> knee and the knee will beat anything they try.

Oh, also -
Something that *is* a combo or close enough:
P -> f+P+G appears to beat the opponent's attempts to attack their way out of it. No damage is guaranteed from the catch, but if you're smart you can get something by trying different followups every time. So try P -> f+P+G at close range and see if you have any luck.

 

Actually there ARE MC attacks -> throws that are guaranteed
in VF4. It all depends on the hit stun. I THINK there are
different kinds of hit stuns some of which allows you to
throw. Vanessa's b+p (MC) is confirmed throw although you
have to dash in. But the idea is that if you do it correctly
you can DEFINATELY throw the opponent, allowing only
throw escapes.

 

Actually, the simple way to play VF is KNOW what are the
frame advantage or disadvantage after every situation. Then
grouping your flow chart according to who has initiative
and how much. I think there was a post here somewhere
that explained all these. A good way to divide is you need
to have at least +2 frame to be considered with initiative
as your elbow 14 frame will beat low P (impt). A +5 frame
initiative is very different from a +4 frame initiative
as now your knee (17 frame) can beat a low P. A +8 is also
another milestone as now you can throw. When you reach
+13 it is also very different as certain characters have
pretty damaging moves at +13, like Lau and Pai, so it is
confirmed good damage.

It is works the other way too when opponent have initiative.
knowing how much initiative the opponent has exactly allows
you to plan your response.

 

I tested that and you're right... that's pretty interesting. Some attacks get it and some do not. But the thing I can't figure out is why. Jacky's inashi reversal -> p -> throw is another example, but I figured that worked just because sega wanted it to and the hitstun was special.

I'm trying to find other attacks that truly guarantee throws. I was thinking of stuff with similar animations to vanessa's b+P but not much comes to mind. I tried jacky's back turned P+K and it didn't work.
Wolf's FC upper -> b+P (stuns instead of knockdown) -> throw is another guaranteed throw, at least if you use the giant swing it is. (thanks GE)

Anyone else have any tested guaranteed throws?

 

Jeffry's + to low throw in Version C might be one. Also, Jeffry's + on hit.

I don't know if Lau's hop kick leads to a guaranteed throw, but it's a possibility. (Sorry at work and unable to test myself.)