differences between mC and MC props

Hey guys,

I have this quesion I've been wondering about all this time and it's about the differences between nh, mc and MC properties.

My question actually came from the idea that on mc some strings are quaranteed fully, like sarahs, you actually get the MC properties when connecting 6P+K,P,K on mc but on the other side if you hit someone with a standard p in mc you get the properties as if it was a nh (so +5 advantage instead of the +8 that you would get on ch).

The wierd thing i find about the whole thing actually is how the 6P+K,P,K connects. you get the 6P+K on mc, not the following P, so why would that second moves properties change so that the K is guaranteed.

So when do you know a move has different properties when it connects on mc? there is no information about this in the framedata sheets and i couldn't find anything in the forum about it, because maybe there are more sneaky things like sarahs string connecting, maybe someones 6p will give ch frames when hitting it in mc, i don't know. i just kindof feel that i'm missing a lot of pieces to the puzzle.

also, on a little sidenote, how does damage scaling work in vf?

if the 1st hit is a nh launcher, what is the scaling for the next moves?
what is the damageincrease you get when connecting a move on mc and what is it on MC? does this effect the scaling on juggles too?
does this scaling also effect heavy down attacks you do that are only guaranteed if someone doesn't struggle to get up quicker?

if you could help me with any of this, i'd be very happy! thanks!!

 

How about the blue flash?

I get it when using offensive moves or moves that seem to hit the opponent on the side.

Is there also a white flash?

 

MC is yellow flash, normal hit or mC is white flash. I'm not sure there is a blue flash, or possibly you're just seeing the white?

 

It just does.

There is no science behind finding out the properties, other than the command list.

Examples:

Brad's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif on mC is +1, Vanessa (DS), /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is +2 (even on normal hit). Vanessa's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif_/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif crumples on mC and MC not on normal hit.

These are on the command list.

mC yield more damage than normal hit, but less than MC:

Vanessa /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif:
nh 20
mC 22
MC 25

Note that mC give the same advantage on hit as nh unless stated other wise (like the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif examples).
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Blue glow= side hit
White glow= normal hit

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4-digit mark /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

 

Hey guys, thanks for all the thoughts!

ah, so that's what the +XX on CH mean in the comments tab? I didn't understand what that had an effect on. sorry for not checking the wiki before asking the scaling questions.

i am also guessing that it is hard coded, is it maybe the case that this hardcoding pushes the mC properties to the second or third move in some cases, that the (6P+K)P actually gets the ch properties for the K to be able to connect (looking at sarahs string again). So if you don't do the followup K, do you get the CH frames of the second hit in that string? (would be interesting to use in tactics, maybe sneaking a throw after the 2 hits)

myke, that's exactly what i mean, thanks for writing it a little clearer than i did!

akai, are these the only other examples of strings connecting fully on mC? I found out about blazes on my own and have used it a lot since (there are quite a number of moves that are -13 on block).

 

I think AM2 did not originally intend it but has decided not to fix it and left it in as a little quirk of the game that adds some extra depth. As practically every fighting game has adopted quirks as later 'gameplay enhancements'. Ie. wave dashing, fuzzy guarding, jump installing, all of them things you won't convince me they thought of while creating the game.

Sue me for wild theorizing, but here come my possible explanations for the above to occur. I am in fact a computer programmer, but it's still a wild guess since I wouldn't know anything about how AM2 built VF's code. Just blame what follows below on me being bored.

Two main theories:
#1: An mC changes the speed at which the attacker recovers. You could pose that the game recognises a move is guaranteed the moment the input comes in, so it skips the calculations normally required when the hitframes of the move in question activate, leading the attacker to recover 1 frame (the 'hitting hitframe') faster.

#2: An mC changes the speed at which the defender recovers because he's broken out of his current recovery animation and inserted into another animation. This sudden switch of animation, which can somtimes be clearly seen as a character snapping from one state to another takes the game more processing power to pull off and thus inserts a bit of lag into the hit animation.

The carrythrough:
Both these theories could explain a normally not guaranteed third strike in a series hitting. #1 will repeat because the game has read another input that is guaranteed and will skip the hitframe again. #2 will repeat because the lagged hit animation will be broken as well, leading to another lag on the next hit animation (or the second hit animation only activates when the first is complete, which also leads to carrythrough of the extra frame(s)). Say that this leads to an extra +1 frame over the normal properties of the move can make a normally not guaranteed third hit in a string become guaranteed, but only if the usual 'pause' that allows the later hit to normally be blocked is only a single frame long, thus explaining other strings not getting this perk.

 

I think the Blue Flash is a side MC hit, not just a side hit.

So for example when you create a side turned situation, like take a look at Sarah's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif( /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gifor /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif), once you get them side turned use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and on MC it will have a blue flash and your opponent cant recover. It's like a crumple hit that they cant recover from and you can bounce them afterwards, no matter the weight.

So i think it's just MC

 

I don't buy it, Vortigar. There's a chance you're right, but it doesn't seem to work out to me.

1) Isn't this the same idea as a 0frame throw, in a way. That is, AM2 clearly knows how to vary startup time of an attack if they choose to do so. And even a single frame is considered important enough to mention... look at how "1-frame delay" works. This seems like it would be a pretty significant oversight if it was an accident.

2) Fighting games rely on accurate reading of input at 60 frames per second, much more than they rely on accurate display of the graphics (at that same speed, anyway). That is, even if switching animations on hit takes a little extra processing power, if they wrote the game in a sane way, then it should drop a frame of animation, and keep inputs 100% accurate, not the other way around.

And last but not least... the issue doesn't appear to be consistently a difference of 1-frame anyway.