DM P+K

With Shun do KK2P against most blocked DM P+K. I think shun has one of the worst throw range in the game so if the DM was used at max range you won't be able to throw without dashing.

 

some chars don't really have a wiki that's useful outside of combos . . . *cough* eileen *cough*

 

Throw ranges, is there a chart on throw ranges for each character?

I don't remember seeing something like this in the wiki...

 

No... it's not even consistent for each character, there's actually a slightly different range for each individual throw, I don't think anyone has found a good method for comparison yet, though.

 

with the info we have now, plus the basic set up from sweeps beginners guide we can make a pretty nice wiki

 

geeho doesnt throw escape much /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif, that's one of his nasty habits i rememeber ~ dunno about now tho.

anywayz, sugarman, seriously though, just go circular or delay a large move at their disadvantage, you dont have to stay turtling with guard "if you dont want to".

 

Tried that, Kages DM has some tight timing to interrupt or at least it seems like it with Shun anyway.

 

some people use DM as a flow chart like goh, this is usually from small disadvantage to small advantage. it means it's trying to bait your reaction so it's best to stay in defense.

some people use DM as a defense/evade. depending on their disadvantage (should be larger), a large attack with a large hit window should be enough /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

im not sure about shun, try going for a mule kick (u+k)

 

Yep Slightly delayed mule kick at larged advantage will still beat LPs while beating DM P+K.

 

Here's the sad thing, I tried a delay mule kick. I swear I did, could have been a lag thing. I don't know. I even passed it off
to Woo! the family Shun player and he was surprised at this shit
too. It wasn't a full green bar connection so it could have been
the case.

(anti online people that's your cue)

Anyway as it was said previously, throwing which is what I was
doing isn't the best choice anyway.

 

VF5 would be better if they took DMPK out of the game.

 

Nerf 2p too...

 

then you get jab jab jab unless you take away the + 2 on block.

 

The more you play the game the better you get at dealing w/ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif .

I love playing Jeff, waiting for the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif , blocking it and then hitting /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif And I think that Lau is the king of killing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

DMPK on the other hand is a stupid crutch, get-out-of-jail-free-card abused by scrubs, and, more shamefully, some non-scrubs. It takes the nitaku game that is at the core of the game and subverts it.

 

Yeah Lau is super nasty at combating the blatant low punch lol.

DM really isn't that bad to me. There are few characters with great DMs, but, even then, they're all very punishable. Sometimes I have to slow my game, not attack so much and block more to realize it but yeah, DMs just aren't that bad. And I happen to really enjoy the idea of them cause it makes the game that much more 3D and breaks up the feel of fighting on a 2D plane.

(Note: I do realize how frustrating they can be online though lol.)

 

Mods, I think Krs. meant DMPK, not DM. Please don't lock this thread.

Krs, they do add to the 3d-ness of the game, but then so do evades. They annoy me because they reward turtling and discourage aggressive responses to advantageous situations. Supposedly AM2 added zero frame throw and decreased recovery time on moves to discourage turtling. I don't think they succeeded personally and it had the awful effect of making many places perfect for DMPK. I guess someone could argue that since it let's you deal with getting your move blocked w/o getting hit or thrown afterward, it discourages turtling, but I am not sure that that was what they were thinking.

Maybe my VF style makes me eat a lot of these and no else gets as annoyed by them as me. I kind of doubt this though, because so many players throw them out constantly and something somewhere along the line must have given them enough positive reinforcement when they did the move that they decided they needed to do it lots and lots.

 

Sorry use to saying defensive move for the actual DM (P+K). Then evade for evade.

I get the positive reinforcement thing. Makes sense. I just question how many 'good' players they've played to get such a positive reinforcement.

I'm against turtling as a whole too. But also equally against mindless rushdown. So it's tough to balance the two. Defense is not a bad thing. In-fact, I think it's one of the coolest, yet toughest aspects of this game. I think the ability to backdash and even ARM speed of some characters is more discouraging than DM P+K, but even then, I think it's pretty cool too because it's far from broken or anything, and grants another playstyle to learn to deal with lol (And it's not like I don't use it to my advantage. Some cases require it too).

I suppose I really am an optomist, so it's possible that I'm on the extreme side of this stance. I just can't see it being that bad. Here's an example I'll end with. Say you're in a tournament that runs matches 2/3. First match, homeboy is DM P+K happy and destroys you. You realize this and you can absolutely wreck them the second and even third match if they don't adjust. Simple stuff like, jab to a full-spinning. Block their typical strings, keep blocking for that DM P+K, then punish. I feel I can say this cause I use to be really guilty of mindlessly using DM P+K, and even now I evade too much lol. I've seen how people use to shut me down when I relied on that.

Dipping into theory fighter zone here with this, but they may even lose their aggressiveness after their normal motions get shut down this way. Then you can easily dictate the pace. (Sorry, going to use a Bruce Lee example here lol) Like Bruce Lee said, a weapon is essentially a crutch, which is what you have described the DM P+K as being in some cases. While they feel it aids them and gives them the advantage, it really gives you the advantage in knowing what they want to do and what their focus is. And the mechanics of the game allow us to punish it, so you can turn it into a detriment on their end rather than a benefit.

Whew, I usually hate Theory Fighter 3: Forum Edition but felt I had to do it to explain my thinking on it.

 

1. Calling DMPK "DM" is a thought crime. If you do it again, I'll send a PM to the right person and you will be banned and your XBL account will be mysteriously deleted and your VSHG confiscated.

2. I agree with you about backdashing. It is totally too powerful and lame. It's not like I never backdash. At the beginning of rounds, or during oki, or when two people are far apart - I think everyone does it then. What sucks is when people do it constantly or when they do it during poke wars, like after they get their /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif blocked for example. Whiffing attacks is so punishable in this game that from a strategic standpoint, it makes sense to incorporate backdash and crouching backdash into all your little poke wars. then once people start using slower long range moves like sidekick to deal with your run away tactics, just abare or dodge and do huge damage. It's so lame and cheap and effective.

Also annoying is the frantic fighter who dashes, backdashes and crouch dashes like crazy. Their high adrenaline extreme Mountain Dew guzzling style cannot disguise the fact that the only untility in doing that is to provoke the opponent into whiffing an attack because the spastic fighter was running away. Ugh.

3. You are right that after a while a person can predict when the DMPK is coming and then punish accordingly, but if the DMPK abusers were better VF players, they could start throwing you at disadvantage. The move could create reverse nitaku, but with the disadvantaged player throwing. Or if the player uses OM and throws you and you blocking b/c you thought DMPK was coming... Ugh. An analogous situation is when I get caught crouching vs. Wolf b/c my opponent is a lame DMPK spammer. It's not like I like to just sit there crouching, and yet there I squat...

My bitching aside, I have a lot of fun playing the game. I love VF5, but I also acknowledge that the game design seems to lend itself to shenanigans more than the past versions, in my opinion (though excessive backdashing has always been lame and effective).

 

Haha, that was actually in 4 too though, and really beneficial if good at it. I kinda liked it in a way, the motion of it. But the random, "spastic" ones you describe do make it kind of lame lol.

 

So I guess you must hate me for using stepping movements to stay nimble outside of nitaku. I'm still in my opponents face, trust me, why should I be an easy target?

I'm totally guilty of using boxstep or minami step after my 2P or PK's are guarded. 6P is such an obvious response after those moves are guarded that boxstepping is top choice.

I hitcheck my moves, if I hit or counter hit you, I keep going. If you guard me putting me small disadvantage, goodluck trying to hit a moving target.

Sometimes I might fuzzy, sometimes I might use stepping movements, sometime's I might ETEG, sometimes I might abare.

p.s. Half circulars are pretty good, btw.
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Personally, I don't like DM P+K either, because alot of opponents laggy/delayed connections allow them to DM P+K out of guarantees, or allow them to avoid getting guaranteed punished after using it.

I also don't or rarely even use DM P+K because I don't think Sarah's is any good, besides near a wall or something.