Do you miss the E button in VF4?

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Chrisdaggimoh, Oct 1, 2001.

  1. Chrisdaggimoh

    Chrisdaggimoh Member

    HI, I'm a UK player, relatively new to the arcade scene, coming from vf3tb, and I am curious as to what everyone thinks of the loss of the E button in VF4.

    I for one didn't miss it at all, after the first round.
    I am mostly using Jacky at the mo, mainly because he is so forgiving, and newbie (i resent the word scrub :p) friendly.

    Main differences from vf3 that i noticed?
    having Jacky's beat knuckle combo's continue even if you block the first hit make him much harder to deal with now, and he seems to be able to delay the subsequent hits noticeably, throwing off the timing of you attacking back.
    His kickflip is much weaker now too, the damage pay-off barely seems worth the insane risk involved in executing it (btw - remember to TAP kick now for it - ub+holding kick just gives u his embarassing looking backwards hopping kick now).
    What else?
    The b+P+K+G stance - looks very interesting - he shuffles/dances back about 1-2 back dash lengths and shouts "come on!". I can see machi players loving this move.
    He can interrupt it with:
    a) a kazuya style body blow (df,df+2 -gives a crumple stun on CH, not sure about followups yet),

    b) a swift step in high kick (this creates a stumble on CH too, - saw it done on the CPU, then followed with the beat knuckle, P,K combo. Took off half their life! What the CPU eats, human players often block, so I'm not sure if it's do-able on human comp)

    c) a step in low, high double kick. comes out quickly, but can't be followed up afterwards AFAIK yet. the speed it comes out with should catch plenty of ppl out to begin with though.

    On the whole, Jacky's moves seem to be much more his own now, he has new animations on from what i saw, 40% of his new moves. He seems to have a lot more Jeet Kune Do style animations and moves in general now; that seems the most economical way of describing the feel of vf4 jacky compared to vf3 jacky.

    Oh yeah, they animate the laces on this trainers. Nice touch.

    Hope this helps some of the peeps who haven't played VF4 yet, and goes some way to disproving the emerging UK stereotyped VF player.. More will come, after I've applied to uni.

    Oh yeah, this may interest you - casino is pretty much the best arcade in london for competition, and last time i went, there seems to be growing interest among Tekken 4 players towards VF4, now that both are in the same arcade..maybe they are seeing the light!

    Daggi

    Oh yeah, before i went on rambling i asked a question about the E button. Don't forget to answer it in your replies, please. Ta.
     
  2. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Nice post =)

    Quick answer: Nope, I don't miss the E button. I like the return to VF2-esque gameplay, personally.


    [​IMG]
     
  3. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    A couple of things:

    - BKC can still be continued in TB even if the P+K is blocked, but the P after the P+K has to be delayed with the right timing. Just thought I'd mention it for those who don't know/forgot.

    - I've mentioned this before, but I remember a good tactic after the b+P+K+G is to cancel the kick (i.e. Jacky runs back, runs in) and to then throw the opponent or perhaps P/ESK. With variety and practice, I think this move could be very useful.

    I've only played VF4 (test) not even 6 hours, but I can already tell that I miss the E button, although the easier CDing almost makes up for it. Anyone who has played me in TB will understand why. If you think ECD is weak in TB, you gotta be kidding yourself. It's still possible in VF4, but you have to be accurate. I.e., you cannot ECD randomly; you must anticipate the attack. Further it seems the buffer window has been reduced substantially, so I'm not even sure the ECD could work fast enough such that you can get an easy throw opportunity (add to that the shortened recovery times and longer execution of throws...sigh).

    Or if you want to see it from a TB-positive perspective, the loss of the ECD, CDE and K-step means that quick depth spacing has been largely eliminated in VF4. The reduction in randomness is a good thing, but the loss of movement makes characters like Kage weaker (this is why we see a lot of DAs and not ECD -> throw from the clips so far). Lion isn't as bad off because he still has his special escapes. We get an "8WR" in VF4, but it is too damn slow to be of any use while both are standing and fighting.
     
  4. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    Yes I'm also pleased with Jacky's new animations, he fights with far more flair with his new shuffle moves and looks incredibly fluid when played with skill. I especially like his new "One Inch Punch" throw that has replaced his "Face Crusher" as his default throw command. I too really get the feel that he practices Jeet Kune Do compared to his VF3 embodiment. Now, he often acts like every other stereotyped Bruce Lee wanna be (Martial Law comes to mind and especially Jann Lee) which, isn't a bad thing at all (except Martial Law and Jann Lee who act like wankers with their annoying scream imitations) as I think he looks cool when he flicks his nose etc.

    With regards to the Kickflip, both Bryants have had changes to them. Jacky's is much faster than Sarah's in execution but has far more lag when missed or blocked. Sarah's technique on the other hand is a little bit more advanced than her brothers. Though slower to take off (she does a slight crouch before she flips which put an end to my beloved Knee, Kickflip unless I get a MC on a Light) she recovers much quicker and lands further back from her opponent which is a plus if it's avoided. She can also perform the Kickflip from her Flamingo Stance which while a little bit weaker than her regular stance counterpart is just as fast as Jacky's and still has her advantages of quick recovery and distance. A perfect finisher to one of her many possible combos from the stance.

    Though with the blasted simplified counters of VF4 (damn you Madin!!!) and the toned down power of the Kickflip, still, Jacky's Kickflip is stronger than Sarah's. So I believe his is best used as an attack compared to Sarah who should only use it as a counter.

    I don't miss the E button at all. Evading is still in the game, though you can't do it to the extent that you could when you were far away from your opponent in VF3, 8 way run is an ok compromise. Pressing up or down at the right time will give you a perfect dodge, in fact, to me the player who does dodge his/her opponents attack seems to have an even better opportunity to counter attack than VF3 offered.

    Going back to three buttons has made the gameplay more instinctive. With my one set of fingers only having to cover three buttons instead of four and all movement relying on my other hand I feel that a much more smoother style of play is possible. The 8 way run is slow compared to Soul Calibur (it's more like an 8 way walk) but it's not useless like DOA2, with enough space between you and your opponent you can 8 way run a little to give yourself a slightly better position in the ring like moving out of a corner.

    I believe you can do some amazing acts of agility by just moving the stick at the right time. And it's scrub proof as it requires great timing. Anyone who puts in the time will soon reap the benefits and just forget about the E button.

    Adio.
     
  5. jackybrothas

    jackybrothas Well-Known Member

    nope i don't miss it at all.... hehe it's pretty funny too cuz last night i was practicin on dreamcast then when i played today i kept hitting the start button or just hit the arcade cabinet cuz i was sooo used to hittin the escape button.... but yea i don't miss it at all : )

    "How many people wanna kick some a$$!!?? i Do! i Do!..." Stroke 9
     
  6. Yamcha

    Yamcha Well-Known Member

    Yeah I miss it...the system just feels more robust with it, like there are so many more options available. The sidesteps in 4 are just too small for a true 3D game, and if you're going to anticipate an attack and dodge, you might as well do a reversal or whatever else, especially now that you can escape side throws. At the same time, I forgot who it was that mentioned it, but the new conditional dodge does cut down on a lot of lucky E->throw/attacks, something I'm probably guilty of in 3. Of course this may change with time.
     
  7. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    The dodge doesn't place any restrictions on you. In theory you can follow with whatever you want so you can still do K+E etc it's just you have to be precise. The regular sidestep is small but when you dodge an opponent your given a lot of room to act. Escaping side throws are fine with me as when everyone gets into the new system they'll be a lot more common.

    Adio.
     
  8. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    JTGC
    Personally, I thought I'd loathe the loss of the E button, but I don't really miss it that much yet. I'm enjoying the simplicity, and really like the way they compensated for it with the re-worked CD'ing and 3 types of 3D movement, although I basically only use the "special" attack-responsive dodge. The window to buffer stuff into the escape DOES open later, but since the system places you perfectly in response to the attack, you can still do HUGE damage. The whole escaping process seems simplified and slowed down, but at the same time it's been made more deliberate, and more rewarding to those who guess correctly, rather than randomly throwing out an E.

    BTW, Jacky can do his shuffle after several of his moves by holding B after the command. Also, in Ver. B he can chain a Spinkick into his normal switch stance with P+K+G, K.

    Spotlite
     
  9. jackybrothas

    jackybrothas Well-Known Member

    i think jacky can also do the spin kick on the test version.... does it look like when he switches stances he lays one hand to the ground and kicks? and then when ya try to do it again in that same stance it looks the same yet without the hand on the ground? if not then i guess they changed it in ver B.

    "How many people wanna kick some a$$!!?? i Do! i Do!..." Stroke 9
     
  10. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    JTGC
    You know what, I've only seen pictures, but it does look like that, you're probably right. Just never seen anyone do it, so I assumed it was a new thing.

    Spotlite
     
  11. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Do I miss the E button in VF4? Yes, but I can live without it in that game. At least in the test version... The game has enough 3d movement attacks and what not to keep it a very 3d game (and I used these attacks a lot, just for positioning). In addition, the new evade system works very well and I had a blast using it. But for the most part... VF4 is VF4.... it's not VF3plus as far as I can tell, but it's still VF.

    An E button would actually have made VF4 a weird game perhaps... or maybe too much like VF3... I love VF3, I love the pace of the matches (on experienced levels anyways, it's really fast). VF4 is packed with intensity and rounds go by so fast. VF4 isn't really on a straight line by any means, not when I've played it, but it has a crazy intensity to it that I love.

    My main reason for missing the E button in VF4 is actually blindfighting. In VF3, any attack that could be implemented with the E button and without hitting db/b/ub could work like normal, but attacking the opposite direction... This in itself made blindfighting fun (imo) in VF3 with just about any character.

    As for the new dodge system, I like it. It works, it's sufficient, it does what it needs.

    The old dodge system feels great in VF3's environments... I like trying to force even plain or downward slope on Pai's stage. Keeping my back facing the wall against Wolf on Akira or Sarah stage. Angling for a ring out assault in the VF3 environments. Setting up situations for slope BS (yes, there are ways to do it purposefully, or at least intuitively). Etc... But those are reasons I love VF3. VF4 isn't like that, and when I think about it, VF4 shouldn't be like that. The dodge system that exists in VF4 is sufficient enough to do all you would even want to do in that system as far as I can tell. The environments are no longer varied... with the VF3 movement system, you probably would feel cramped in VF4.... With the new system, things go by SO FAST. Sure, the VF4 system could be implemented with an E button, but AM2 proved it didn't require it.

    The other bonus is (though I wish others expressed this sentiment if they had it), the differences give me more reason to continue my VF3 game while still focusing primarily on VF4. I can play VF1-4 and enjoy them all still, all for very different reasons. And honestly, I do believe there's lots of undiscovered (or at least unpublicized) territory in all games. But isn't that always the case?

    -Chanchai
     
  12. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    My main reason for missing the E button in VF4 is actually blindfighting. In VF3, any attack that could be implemented with the E button and without hitting db/b/ub could work like normal, but attacking the opposite direction... This in itself made blindfighting fun (imo) in VF3 with just about any character.

    <hr></blockquote>

    Now, I haven't played VF4 yet but, like VF2, you could use the G button to make attacks come out while having your backturned in VF3. I can't imagine this has been removed from VF4. Classic example, Akira doing a Knee after being SEd.

    cheers,

    <font color=white>Llanfair</font color=white>
    <font color=orange>Booyah daddy mac! I'm stylin!</font color=orange>
     
  13. Drunken_Master

    Drunken_Master Well-Known Member

    i miss it but i still managed to sidestep someone and do a backthrow on them in VF4

    Hwang Jang Lee should of won in Drunken Masters it would be cool the first bad guy to win in a kung fu movie
     
  14. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Maybe I just play Shun too much/versus/images/icons/tongue.gif.

    Blindfighting seems to be really different in VF4... Or... VF4test anyways... I remembering that engine really "encouraging" me to not do it/versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

    However, I hope there are ways to do "certain" moves while blindfighting.... It certainly was fun to do the classic Shun example in VF3... TA-Punch(non-counter), opponent goes for throw or some mid/high attacks-->d+K+E-->P+G (or whatever you wanted to do there), etc... I think hops are still possible while blindfighting, and if so, I'll be happy too. As for the Shun example I gave above, I've applied that with a lot of characters and it's been a fun little thing to do...

    The new inputs for some attacks also takes away my Lion "cheeze" blindfighting sequence... TA-attack-->f+P+E. From here, Lion is really just facing the side, and acts like he's facing his opponent, but most people see someone "sort-of" turned around and think he's still facing forwards.... for the uninformed in this situation, it tends to be a fun little thing to do against opponents who think too lightly of turned around opponents. Not to mention d+P+E while blindfighting, another fun little setup (heh heh, just watched my matches with Shota from March and saw that I actually baited him with it and as a final attack of a round... Turned around-->avoid attack with d+P+E-->d+K and won the round).

    Hmm... I'm wondering if it's possible to do that which Lion benefitted from the E button in VF3.... Block a high recovery low attack, f+E (or b+E), immediately press f+P (stagger), P, d+KK (The Lion standard cheddar sequence). I'm guessing in VF4, you can limit your option to a fast back dash into f+P.

    So...
    Lion blocks high recovery low attack (I stress high recovery for VF4/versus/images/icons/tongue.gif)-->b,b--->f+P (immediately)--> elbow stagger VF4 options. I'm sure this'll work... but I'm wondering how fast one can do this and if they can maintain whatever advantage is given to them (or live up to it anyhow)....

    Again... VF4 = New Game... I'm happily looking forward to it, loved the test, love the videos I've seen of Version B even more (cool, huh?)... Looking forward to it. STILL NOT LETTING GO OF VF3 (or 2 or 1). Still gonna play VF4 of course!

    -Chanchai
     

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