do you think quest mode's A.I emulates close enough to human play?

as in, do you feel as though you are comming across human inperfection or can you recognize actions which you see only comming from a non CPU opponent?

as in high level quest mode arcades.

a couple to pick out is that the oponnent sometimes stands there blocking from high to low occasionally as though it's hezitating like a human, or that TR / QR attack mind games are not impossible as they were in ver.C cpu. i noticed that the opponent can get nervous and sometimes crouch block for a short period, as it's possible to catch the cpu out in low throw yomi ^^

throwing is more random, although sometimes, you can see it comming in thow counterable situations, but sometimes you eat an attack. movement is improved abit, more CDing, but not too extreme like canceling with G.. catch thows are not so impossible to get out, as the ver.C usually ducks without hezitation, in this one, the cpu actually panics on rare occasions!!

what are your thoughts? do you think it plays nothing like a human and can't help you in the slightest? or is it pretty damn similar?

 

Well i dont really have a answer for u yet but if players in japan low punch like the cpu does then i would say no.

 

The AI is the closest thing you can get to playing humans in any (fighting) game for VF4 Evolution.

I will list some of the flaws that Kumite AI had:

-No catch throwing it from a nuetral position, it will always duck, unless you catch the opponent while they are performing a striking attack, don't count on the throw to work.

-The computer also is programmed to duck EVERY SINGLE, one string high level attack, such as single palms, Wolf's b+p etc. Unless they are recovering or performing a stricking attack, they will duck.

-Perfect throw reverses for any throw that you use past the fourth time on opponents higher than 10th Dan. So if you use Jacky and use d+f+p+g four times, after the fourth they will always reverse it, but if you use d+f,d+f+p+g after that, they will not reverse it, kinda fishy considering that it is the same direction as the other throw.....

-reverals from NOWHERE, the computer in VF4 ver. C would just cripple me with laughter sometimes. As Akira past 5th Dan, the computer is amazing with reversals. Even the computer with Wolf and Vanessa reverse better than the best arcade players.

-Akira NEVER MISSING f,f,f+P FCb,f+p after the side swtich catch throw. I mean come on, they land this everytime but can't perform a simple down attack after d+f+p+g.

-Lau AI always going head first into Lei Fei players who are in the +++ stance, and going into nuetral Jacky and Vanessa players eating the auto parries.

-The computer ALWAYS freezes against charged moves, always, as Wolf you could get 1000 straight excellent victories with just b,f+p and p+k at full charge.

-at the beginning of the round most AI's will just stand there and let you take a free hit, 'what a nice gesture.'

-The AI's TFT combos, let's see, f,f+k+g, and ppb+pk.
-Akira's single palm follow up would be, the KNEE?

-There are hundreds of others that needed fixing, most of which Sega did.

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Positives of the AI in Evolution:

-The AI will actually use some of the high damging combos, the flaw is that they always perform they perfectly. They never miss the TFT combo /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif, most humans miss it at least once.

-The computer (at high levels) perform several very advanced techniques. Such as fuzzy guarding, triple throw escapes during evades/recoveries/rising/etc.

-The computer has also been taught more flow charts, some character have better AI than others though in the flow department. Like the Akira AI is pretty good at imitating aggressive Akira players, but the Lei Fei AI can't do Heruru's dancing for shit.

-Like you said, mind games are easily possible on the AI now. You will see them turtle (defend alot), crouch alot, and even fuzzy guard and fuzzy crouch.

-There are many more improvements that I haven't listed, so if anyone wants to post any please do.

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Things they still haven't fixed:

-the AI never knows where it is in the ring. If it is close to the edge of the ring, it will not play any different that if it was in the center.

-some of the air/knockdown/crumple combos the AI uses, are not the best ones. Such as they didn't have enought time to program some of the combos with modified moves in them to the AI, so you will see them sacrafice damage for easier command input.

-the AI still has faults in their "reposnse to specific command" type scripts. From what I can tell there is a direct variation type relationship in the AI script. This means that the AI has preprogrammed responses, such as A-D, and there are types of "triggers" to trigger the apporpriate actions from the AI, such as A-C, so there are set ups like.

AA
AB
AC
AD

BA
BB
BC
BD

CA
CB
CC
CD

 

From there you have to factor in several other factors such as, how agressive they are (determined in the script by what rank they are), and special circumstances such as if they can reverse/sabaki/etc. the trigger move.

So then the sricpt has to be programmed like:

AA(ABCD)X
AB(ABCD)X
AC(ABCD)X
AD(ABCD)X

BA(ABCD)X
BB(ABCD)X
BC(ABCD)X
BD(ABCD)X

CA(ABCD)X
CB(ABCD)X
CC(ABCD)X
CD(ABCD)X

I am sure alot of you have no fucking clue what I am talking about, but the script code for the AI in this game is some of the most complicate I have seen ever in my life, Sega truly did a good job and it needs to be recognized.

The cool part for the programmers is than not only does the AI have all of these options to deal with during each 1/60th of each second of each match, but it can deal with them at the same speed of the game. So if you input the command, the AI will "know" what to do in a matter of at least 1/60th of a second, that takes some very intelligent programmers indeed.

 

The AI is much more enjoyable to fight against in Evo. They'll actually hesitate and realistically switch between high block and crouch. For instance, with Aio I've been able to force the AI (sometimes) into a crouch from , allowing me to follow up with a low throw.

They also seem to remember a winning move or tactic, meaning that sometime they'll continually pull-off one specific move over and over. I've noticed this allot with low punches and Pai's high kicks.

There's also a much greater distinction between the various opponents you meet in Quest. These AIs really exhibit markedly different behaviour from one another...which is cool.

 

I think there are some players who play very similar to the AI opponents. Although sometimes the cpu makes you go /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif still it's a step in the right direction compared to previous VF offerings.

/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
Srider said:

I think there are some players who play very similar to the AI opponents. Although sometimes the cpu makes you go /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif still it's a step in the right direction compared to previous VF offerings.

/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a leap for fighting games everywhere, there is no other game that has AI even close to being as complicated and sophisticated as VF:Evolution.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Myke said:

While it's the best VF AI to date IMO, it still plays text book VF against you, and you cannot condition it like you can a human so no mindgames whatsoever. For working on your defensive techniques and guaranteed counters, as well as your combos, the AI is great and these skills do carry over into human competition. But it still falls way short of simulating a real player.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of my programming theories is that, if you want to simulate a "life-like" opponent, you need to show some one the actual AI running under undefined "game conditions," which for VF would be during a Quest Match, and see if the human observer can tell that it is an AI fighting, or if they think it is a human playing.

This is the way that Epic Games tests out the Unreal Tournament games, when you watch the matches, some times it is very hard to tell the difference between human and AI. But in VF:Evolution, when you watch a man between a human player, and the AI, it is still blatantly obvious who is the human and who is not.

The goal of Sega with VF's AI was to simulate the Japanese arcade players based off of "collected" (hmmm) data. While this is the closest fighting game AI has been to being human-like, there is still a shitload that Sega needs to do.

Like I mentioned, the AI performs the same regardless of what its position is in the ring. And is perfect with all combos, it never messes up ever (unless it is against a wall). And thoughg no one has figured it out (shy of a plus 2 million line AI routine script) to get opponents to have 'emotions,' like panicing, getting aggressive, showing off, the AI never changed how it plays, just like a robot......

 

[ QUOTE ]
Myke said:

Real AI, having the ability to learn, to be conditioned, and to adapt is not here yet -- at least, not in the games we play.


[/ QUOTE ]

Somewhere I read that the VF AI has the ability to adapt (learn), if I can find it I will post it, I am pretty sure it was under an adverstisement for VF4:Evolution.


Higher Voltage
Mostly about Ver. C AI mode
Gamer Web

 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the way that Epic Games tests out the Unreal Tournament games, when you watch the matches, some times it is very hard to tell the difference between human and AI.

[/ QUOTE ]
No way. Play a game agianst any level of AI in UT and then go and play on a server and see the vast difference. FPS bot AI doesn't even come close. Bots have no true "aiming", no knowledge of environment, be it the surrounding landscape or any audio clues to find opponents, no guessing, no random running to evade projectiles, few have advanced tactics like rocket jumping, and those that do are either highly linear in their execution/timing or just random tactics that basicaly happen every 1-2 minutes with out any purpose and the list goes on. If anything Evo AI better represents human play (than FPS AI) because VF is based on rock/paper/scissors type rules (although a bit deeper than that) in a linear environment where as an FPS is free roaming in an open enviroment.

 

Did you play UT 2003? Or regular UT?

 

[ QUOTE ]
Did you play UT 2003? Or regular UT?

[/ QUOTE ]
Both.

 

Well I played the Homestay Akira ai 4 times and I almost beat it in one match so even though it's very good there must be some problems with it (Im not a good player).

 

I don't think it does. I don't know much about the AI behind VF but i always have the feeling that the computer is cheating. I play Virtua Tennis 2 too and i get that same feeling sometimes. The AI in evo is definitely improved from VF4 but it's still far from perfect.

In the training mode you can set the cpu to block every attack. So i guess the AI is more or less about "pretending" to miss. I watched the bots in UT and Quake 3 and they don't seem to have a clue about what they are doing yet they can fire perfect shots at will. When they miss it seems like they are doing it on purpose.

The perfect combos, blocking, struggling and escape from the "high level" bots just sometimes piss me off. They also seem to play like they know all the moves of every single character. I mean how many real life players are like that?

 

I also play Virtua Tennis 2 and yes it does cheat on hard mode and cheats alot on very hard mode. But even on the hardest setting it is beatable and unlike other games with cheating AI it will turn you into a very good player. But best to stick with hard mode.

 

I think all AI "cheats" to some extent - it's pretty hard to program something that can truly use yomi the way a human being can.

That being said, Nintendo racing games are the worst out there, as far as AI cheating goes.

 

AKA Rubber band physics as used in Gran Turismo(a crap colectathon).
In Nintendo games you not only have that but the uncanny ability of opponent cars to suddenly go twice as fast get perfect items and drive over lava etcetera.
Urgh.