Do you think Shun is weakened too much in Ver.C

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Ealsen, Mar 26, 2002.

  1. Ealsen

    Ealsen Well-Known Member

    Can anyone list all the changes made to Shun in Ver.C ?
    I searched older posts and they are all scattered in multiple threads and some of them are not confirmed.
     
  2. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    I've got a list somewhere in Japanese... it's quite long. I'll try to dig it up.
     
  3. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    lol, think you coulda made it just "no"? I can't say "no, shun is just right/shun is fine" .. .I have to say that he's too strong (which I doubt he is).

    The C changes weren't that big a deal.
     
  4. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    How much did you play him with Ver A or Ver. B?
     
  5. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Moby translated Pyrexia's list a while ago, <a target="_blank" href=http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=versus&Number=26147&Search=true&Forum=versus&Words=version%20c%20changes&Match=And&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=3months&Main=26147>http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=versus&Number=26147&Search=true&Forum=versus&Words=version%20c%20changes&Match=And&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=3months&Main=26147</a>

    Reviewing this list makes me appreciate how much more powerful Shun was in Version B. However, I've been playing him a lot recently, and I still find him a more than competent character. Underpowered under 8 DPs, manageable 8-15 DPs, more than competitive 16-23 DPs, and a bit of a monster 24 DPs and over. It's just too bad the mule kick doesn't beat LPs any more...what a great move that was.
     
  6. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Very little, but I've read the complete list of changes, and most of it has to do with drinking stuff, aside from the reduced priority on u+K.
    The basic combos, pokes, throws, and patterns remain the same, no seriously useful combos were taken away, and ?I don't think any throws were reduced in damage. The biggest loss is probably the unblockable d+K,K in the P,P,d+K,K canned combo. From what I understand, shun only needed a few drinks to start using this in B but needs more to use it in C.
     
  7. Ealsen

    Ealsen Well-Known Member

    Hehe sorry about the poll I created in a hurry, but I guess it's too late to change now.

    Thanks for the link that contains the Shun changes. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  8. Shundi_05

    Shundi_05 Well-Known Member

    Hi!

    Actually the changes for shundi in Ver C is very bad. u+K is a very critical move for shundi. Now u+K is so bad that low punch can interrupt. Since low punch can interrupt, consider that move useless. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

    Sorry don't take offences.
     
  9. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    Very true, very true. The damage given by a LOT of his attacks were dumbed down quite a bit. Some almost in half if memory serves.
     
  10. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    Nah, it wasn't that bad. The two moves that got smeared were the f,f+K and the u+K+G, and for both of those the damage reduction was just slightly under 30%. Almost all of the other changes in damage reduction were in the range of 5-15%, with one(f+K+G) getting a 20% hit.
     
  11. Hayai_JiJi

    Hayai_JiJi Well-Known Member

    Shit Shun is a beast sober all the drinks are just a bonus.
     
  12. KNK

    KNK Member

    You can say that Shun was strong in ver. B, sure he had a couple of cheesy moves, but he is definetely weakened too much in ver. C... It's not so much the fact that many of his core moves went through damage reduction, you could probably live with that, but what is worse is that because of the damage reductions, his core moves lost their frame advantages & KD ability.

    d/f+P
    In ver. B, he had initiative when he hit the opponent. When he had more than 12 DPs, the uppercut would KD & float if hit on MC. In ver. C, he only has initiative when hit on MC and the uppercut will only KD when he has insanely many DPs.

    b+P (backfist)
    Used to track dodgers and when hit on MC, chouwan or uppercut was guaranteed afterwards. In ver. C, it only tracks opponents who dodge to Shun's back side. Nothing is guaranteed on MC...

    b/u+P+K+G, P
    His special dodge punch used to float the opponent when hit on MC and you could tag on combos afterwards. When hit on minor counter, he had a great frame advantage and chouwan for example, could interrupt the opponent's punch.
    In ver. C, it will never float and only gives a small frame advantage when hit on MC.

    P,P,d+K,K
    With more than 8 DPs, the whole series would connect when the first punch hit. In ver. C, you need more than 17 DPs...
    With more than 16 DPs, the d+K,K part would connect even if the opponent guarded the first punch. In ver. C, you need more than 26 DPs...

    u+K
    His mulekick could counter low attacks. In ver. C, that ability is gone...

    I mean there are many other moves which are weakened, but the damage reduction of uppercut, special dodge punch, and backfist hurt most...
     
  13. jackybrothas

    jackybrothas Well-Known Member

    hmmm that explains many questions i had... looks like the shun users have to work harder in matches (especially me).
     
  14. danny13

    danny13 Well-Known Member

    The b/u+p+k+g,p still does float AFTER you drink a certain amount. However, it floats too low for anything to connect............
     
  15. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    d/f+P
    In ver. B, he had initiative when he hit the opponent. When he had more than 12 DPs, the uppercut would KD & float if hit on MC. In ver. C, he only has initiative when hit on MC and the uppercut will only KD when he has insanely many DPs.


    If it hits normal, it's only -1, which is basically even. Also, the d/f+P will never KD but will float with 18 DPs for a combo. That seems more than fair.

    b/u+P+K+G, P
    His special dodge punch used to float the opponent when hit on MC and you could tag on combos afterwards. When hit on minor counter, he had a great frame advantage and chouwan for example, could interrupt the opponent's punch.
    In ver. C, it will never float and only gives a small frame advantage when hit on MC.


    It floats on 18 DPs or higher, and you can tag on d/f+P,P,K for a combo. It works even on heavies, I think.

    P,P,d+K,K
    With more than 8 DPs, the whole series would connect when the first punch hit. In ver. C, you need more than 17 DPs...
    With more than 16 DPs, the d+K,K part would connect even if the opponent guarded the first punch. In ver. C, you need more than 26 DPs...


    25 DPs...but come on, the string takes a chunk load of life, and the first punch is 12 frames! A 12 frame counter that takes that much damage, knocks down, and which you don't even have to commit to? Seems quite good to me.

    I mean there are many other moves which are weakened, but the damage reduction of uppercut, special dodge punch, and backfist hurt most...

    One improvement is that his Buddha K,P,d+K,K will always combo now.
     
  16. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    d/f+P - will still float at around 18-20 DP. Not for anything spectacular, but hey, for something the speed of an elbow, that does the damage of an elbow, with better recovery than an elbow, and a 50 pt guaranteed combo at 8 drinks, it still has to be superior right?

    b+P - Jesus, are you serious? This move was WAY overpowered. A non-counterable, 30+ point MC damage, fully tracking move that you could tack on to the beginning of any basic chouwan float as guaranteed wouldn't be overpowered? A MC backfist with NO drinks guaranteed 40% of the bar for minimal effort, and if it was blocked, you still weren't punishable.

    backward dodge, swipe - will still float if you're drunk enough around 20+ drinks

    P,P,d+K,K - ok, confirmed...you are smoking crack. A guaranteed 12 frame 50 (minimum) to 75 damage counter? At 8 drinks? The only thing I hated more than the backfist. Not even knees were "relatively safe" any more. I wasn't the best at triple throw escaping, and was usually content to let Shun have his b+P+G, but instead giving him a guaranteed 1/4 to 1/3 anything punch counterable with no chance of escape or reversal is just stupid.

    u+K - The primary tool to getting yourself to 8 DP in ver B. If only landing 2 and a throw weren't enough to enable the rest of the BS, I don't think folks would have complained quite so much about it.
     
  17. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Oops, correction, I don't know why I thought d/f+P,P,K is guaranteed if the d/f+P hits, only the follow up P is.
     
  18. KNK

    KNK Member

    "d/f+P - will still float at around 18-20 DP. Not for anything spectacular, but hey, for something the speed of an elbow, that does the damage of an elbow, with better recovery than an elbow, and a 50 pt guaranteed combo at 8 drinks, it still has to be superior right? "

    50 pt guaranteed combo at 8 drinks??? I don't know what you are talking about. Nothing is guaranteed at 8 drinks. Only d/f+P,P string is guaranteed.

    "b+P - Jesus, are you serious? This move was WAY overpowered. A non-counterable, 30+ point MC damage, fully tracking move that you could tack on to the beginning of any basic chouwan float as guaranteed wouldn't be overpowered? A MC backfist with NO drinks guaranteed 40% of the bar for minimal effort, and if it was blocked, you still weren't punishable."

    Did I ever say that this move was weak??? READ my post. And I don't know how often you play Shun, but chouwan after b+P MC is only guaranteed at close range.
    Look, my point is he IS weaker compared to ver.B. Ok? It may be that his uppercut and backward dodge swipe still float after 18 - 20 DPs (thanks for clarifying that.), but how often do you get to drink that much in a high level fight? Seriously.

    "P,P,d+K,K - ok, confirmed...you are smoking crack. A guaranteed 12 frame 50 (minimum) to 75 damage counter? At 8 drinks? The only thing I hated more than the backfist. Not even knees were "relatively safe" any more. I wasn't the best at triple throw escaping, and was usually content to let Shun have his b+P+G, but instead giving him a guaranteed 1/4 to 1/3 anything punch counterable with no chance of escape or reversal is just stupid. "

    I don't know what your problem is... Did you even read my post? I've just stated the CHANGE from VER.B and VER.C. Everyone knows that PPd+KK was overpowered so it's only fair that they've changed that in ver.C. In my post, I've stated the major changes from ver.B to ver.C for Shun, and I stand by my point that he is weakend compared to ver.B. You can say that he was way overpowered in ver.B, but that's not what this thread is about, is it?

    "u+K - The primary tool to getting yourself to 8 DP in ver B. If only landing 2 and a throw weren't enough to enable the rest of the BS, I don't think folks would have complained quite so much about it. "

    If Shun went for f+P+K after u+K and you let him go away with it, you just don't have any clue as to how to deal with the situation. Any descent Shun player will never go for f+P+K after u+K because many characters can severly punish Shun for that. So u+K being the primary tool to get DP is simply not true. At least not for experienced Shun players.

    I don't understand your hostility, maybe you have some bad experience with Shun, but that's your problem. I just wrote WHY I think Shun is weakened in ver.C. Ok? Read the posts more carefully next time.
     
  19. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    Maybe you should read the topic, dumbass. It's do you think he's weakened too much. The tone of responses here is folks saying either, yes (which was the tone of yours), or no (which was the tone of mine). Jesus, you even went into a run down of moves under the guise of weakening his core game too much, including the PPd+KK. So I simply pointed out that, honestly, that was a stupid comment to say that moving out his "guaranteed" threshold was a "weakening" to the detriment of his core tactics. It was a balancing of his core tactics. Oh and pardon the 8 drinks on d/f+P for the 50 pt combo...it's 12.

    As for your situation for dealing with a Shun who does do f+P+K after u+K, what do you do? I'd be interested in hearing your theories...a throw is the best bet normally here, but then for only a select few is a throw "severe punishment".
     
  20. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    nutlog, this is my opinion and naturally you can tell me to fuck off, but you're out of line. Ki Nam (I'm assuming that's knk) wasn't being the least bit insulting, and you're coming at him with with all this "dumbass" "smoking crack" "wtf?!" bullshit.

    KiNam's known for his shun skills, and he didn't say much of anything offensive or off-the-wall, and who the fuck has heard of your shun skills? Chill out with the namecalling. It doesn't help your argument, it just makes it weaker because you're attacking ki nam and not arguing your position. KNK's making a big deal about "read what I said" because frankly, he's right, you're ignoring what he said.

    As for shun di doing f+P+K after u+K, even I know that akira can double palm him, others can sidekick, etc.. I don't even play shun. QR/TR to punish shun in this situation is shown in a few movie clips, which is why people have moved on to other combos, usually whiff punch into b,f+PPPK.
     

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