Do you think VF3tb DC plays better?

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by Guest, Dec 5, 1999.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    For those of you who've played both VF3tb arcade and VF3tb DC, I have a question. Aside from the graphics, do you think the changes made from the arcade to the DC have made it a more balanced and/or better playing game?

    Regards, Imashroom
     
  2. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Hmm...this is difficult to approach because it depends on how you like to play the game.

    IMO, I think the arcade is better. Sure, getting beautiful TFT combos on the DC is nice, but the toughness of doing them in the arcade is far more rewarding. Similarly with other characters' floats, etc. There's a *realness* to the arcade that the DC will always lack, I think, and the DC will always seem as a *practice* type home version.

    Furthermore, nothing beats arcade sticks, IMO. Some suck real bad - this is true. But some are amazing and make the arcade experience all that much better. I find the DC sticks to be flimsy and poorly made - diagonals are easy to find due to the square base but still...lots of 'ticka-ticka-ticka'...drives me mental. ;)

    Well, i'm sure there are loads out there who prefer the DC, and Toronto is indeed very lucky to have a VF3tb arcade unit - 50 inch, beautiful machine - in excellent condition with great sticks. It's too bad it wasn't widely distributed in North America.

    cheers,


    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
     
  3. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Arcade is most definitely better.

    Kage is slightly more powerful in DC since a lot of his combos are easier to pull off. However, there are a few combos that are harder for Kage to pull off, especially against Aoi.

    Wolf is MUCH stronger in DC now that a pick up after a Giant Swing is guaranteed (it wasn't in the arcade).

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ice-9 said::Kage is slightly more powerful in DC since a lot of his combos are easier to pull off. However, there are a few combos that are harder for Kage to pull off, especially against Aoi.Wolf is MUCH stronger in DC now that a pick up after a Giant Swing is guaranteed (it wasn't in the arcade).::
    Okay, I agree they're stronger in DC, but could this have been done to restore stuff that was excessively taken away in the change from OB to TB? Maybe, for instance, the designers thought the loss of the "easy" Wolf low kick, MC --> throw was too big a loss [see Superdoug/Nutlog comment in the "flamewar" thread :)] and they tried to restore a little balance to Wolf.
    And Llanfair: I understand the sense of accomplishment at pulling off hard combos, but at the expert level, that should be of little consequence (that's why they're experts -- they can do all the hard stuff), and at lower levels, I don't know -- it just seems to me that with the changes they've made, the sense of accomplishment can occur with a less steep learning curve.
    Also, remember I am talking strictly in terms of gameplay, not arcade vs. home console experience. I.e., if they had put out a VF3tb.1 in the arcades, with the same gameplay changes made in the DC version, would the game be better balanced (primary consideration), and secondarily, more fun as well?
    Imashroom (and no one else)
     
  5. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    I can see where you are coming from, but I do think that the game is more balanced had the designers stuck with the changes they made in TB. Even in the arcade, Kage and Wolf are still very powerful (still top tier for non-Meijins). On the DC, it's just that much easier to be devastating with Kage's TFT combos. And Wolf's GS -> pickup...it's much too strong. I'm not kidding about this...it's much more deadly than Kage's combos. 100 pts damage and incredible range.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ::I'm not kidding about this...it's much more deadly than Kage's combos. 100 pts damage and incredible range.::
    Yeah, but my feeling is that even without the pickup, in a match between strong players, getting a Giant Swing usually means "end of match" anyway. But there is also an interesting new strategy option, if you include picking a stage as an option. Pick a stage where ringouts don't occur (the desert) thus negating some of the "added range," or pick a stage where the pickup isn't guaranteed, which I believe holds true in Shun's stage. Also, the effect of the Giant Swing is so awesome, that throw escapes will negate much of its power, if you Yomi well. This adds another dimension to Wolf. It increases the use (and effectiveness) of his other throws. They are less likely to be throw escaped. Just some thoughts I've had..
    imashroom
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Is it verified that Wolf's Giant Swing --> pickup is still guaranteed in the US DC version?
    In any case, is it guaranteed even Wolf has to run up a slope? If not, then that would put further credence to imashroom's thoughts about adding strategy. You might try to position yourself upslope of Wolf in order to avoid the GS --> pickup.

    Wolfstudent
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Yes, wolf's pickup is guaranteed in DC versions. It's even difficult to struggle out of u+K. Kinda like escaping Taka's headrocker --> big stomp used to be. For all intents and purposes GS = 100pts+pickup or 114 points.

    Nutlog
     
  9. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Actually, that was an inaccurate tidbit of info I wrote waaay back when--it's actually the opposite, Wolf's pickup is always guaranteed in Shun stage, even in the arcade.

    And yes, Wolfstudent, the pickup is guaranteed despite terrain. It's almost like a bug really.

    The problem, imashroom, is that really good Wolf players will GS you only when they know you are not prepared to escape the throw. Shota brought up a good example. Jacky P,P and is prepared for a two way guessing game: ESK or QD -> throw. The problem is, Jacky is vulnerable while he QD and if he delays the elbow. At this point, Wolf can immediately go for a GS and Shota would get caught with it.

    As for your yomi point, that could be applied to anything. You can make SPOD uncounterable and unescapable, and that would force opponents to stand up blocking more and make Akira's low (and weaker) attacks more useful. My point is that there has to be a balance. I think we can all agree that GS by itself is already considered one of the most powerful moves in the game. GS + pickup and it is the most powerful sequence bar none.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Okay, let me summarize where I think we're at. My belief is that when VF3tb was created, the developers believed they had a balanced game. But later Genki felt that some tweaking needed to be done, including toning down the length of air combos. They especially felt that Wolf had been weakened too much (e.g., loss of low kick, MC --> throw), and so when they created the DC version, they restored balance by giving back Wolf his guaranteed GS --> pickup. Ice-9 however, believes that the arcade VF3tb was well balanced and that balance has now been weakened so that Wolf is the now the game's strongest character (which is a logical conclusion of the preceding argument). Llanfair focused not on balance, but on enjoyment; he believes the arcade version of gameplay is more challenging, and hence more fun. Is this a fair summary? And does anyone else have any thoughts on the gameplay balance issue in the conversion from arcade to DC?
    imashroom
     
  11. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Or, in the rush to get VF3tb translated on a new piece of hardware with a completely different architecture than Model 3 within six months, Genki somehow forgot to make the GS -> pick up not guaranteed. /images/icons/wink.gif

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ::Or, in the rush to get VF3tb translated on a new piece of hardware with a completely different architecture than Model 3 within six months, Genki somehow forgot to make the GS -> pick up not guaranteed.::

    Sure it's possible, I just doubt it since they had roughly a year to correct it for US DC. We'll never know for sure, but doing such things as improving the training mode, adding versus modes, vastly improving the AI, and making some minor graphics improvements indicate to me they weren't just rushing out the US version. They certainly must have known about the guaranteed GS --> pickup (I would find it hard to believe they don't read Japanese game books like the mooks), and I suspect they could have easily fixed it if they felt it unbalanced things. Anyway, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
    But regardless of whether it was intentional or not, I really do think the DC version is better balanced gameplay-wise than the arcade. Not by much though.
    I still believe that a good Wolf or Kage player who gets a Giant Swing or TFT to connect has essentially ended the round, regardless of guaranteed pickups or (in the case of the TFT) easier to pull off air combos. Just the demoralizing psychological effect alone is worthy of consideration. I think you even implied all that I've just said in this paragraph in your description of your Kage vs Wolf bouts with Hiro.
    imashroom
     
  13. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Gameplay thoughts.....

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    And does anyone else have any thoughts on the gameplay balance issue in the conversion from arcade to DC?

    <hr></blockquote>

    I've never given much credibility to balance in these games. It's safe to say most people here play at an intermediate to advanced level, some perhaps higher. At this level of gameplay, core elements in the game, such as moves, throws, etc, play a minor role in an effective chance of winning. The major tool is your head and your overall ability. Not the character you're playing. I think anyone can win with any character regardless of guaranteed this or that.

    Speaking of what was intentionally put in the game, has made me think of a few things. One, primarily on my mind, is the whole double throw escape, throw escape guard, escape throw escape guard, etc, etc. I personally believe that these tactics (if they truly are very reliable) were not meant to be in the game. Clearly, these tactics are a sort of Option Select, something AM2 made a point of trying to eliminate from the game after VF2 was so saturated with it. This is why there are missed throw animations, reversal animations etc. Think about it, what's the point of these? These types of 'option selects' detract from the game's inherent learning curve to utilize YOMI! If they were gone, matches would be faster, more interesting, and escaping throws would be considered a great skill of the mind, not the hands - as it should be.

    Based on that, I don't think Genki had any intentions of balancing the game - they were just the 'porters'. The reason they were chosen is because they are a few ex-AM2 staff on board at Genki who are familiar with model 3 (hence why they also did the port of Virtua Striker). If they truly had thought about tweaking the game in any way, then blatant bugs would have been removed. Now, I don't know anything about porting games between systems, but I would imagine it's a lot of cutting and pasting and tons of optimization and debugging.

    cheers,

    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
     
  14. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Gameplay thoughts.....

    It's safe to say most people here play at an intermediate to advanced level, some perhaps higher. At this level of gameplay, core elements in the game, such as moves, throws, etc, play a minor role in an effective chance of winning.

    I will somewhat disagree with this statement. I can recall plenty of moments when a well positioned, well placed TFT combo earned my Kage the victory despite having next to no life. And I distinctly recall the many moments when I thought: "Damn it, if only I can struggle out of the pick up from GS..." I do think it makes a big difference, especially since intermediate-advanced players are more flow-oriented.

    The major tool is your head and your overall ability. Not the character you're playing. I think anyone can win with any character regardless of guaranteed this or that.

    I agree and disagree with this.

    At a higher level, all characters are fairly equal (although it is my opinion that this is more true in arcade than Dreamcast), and specialists do not care about rankings and such.

    However, I will maintain at that whether or not something is guaranteed or not guaranteed is quite important, especially against players who have the skill to always make a guaranteed situation guaranteed.

    SPOD and the bodycheck are good examples. Escaping a SPOD seems quite difficult for many of us since most of us here do not have the luxury of playing against an Akira opponent that uses SPOD, but being able to escape it is really a big bonus. I've seen Andy eat a SPOD every time his Pai's d/b+K+G is blocked by Adam. If he can learn the timing to escape the SPOD it would be a lot more difficult for Adam to punish Andy. This applies for anybody who plays a character with slow recovering low attacks (Lau's f,d+K; Pai's b/d+K+G; Sarah's d/f+K+G; etc.).

    When Andy is able to take advantage of the SPOD being not guaranteed, it would force Adam to use the deep bodycheck instead (which actually takes off as much life) and is guaranteed. Andy's advantage, of course, is that a guaranteed deep bodycheck in those situations actually require faster reflexes than a SPOD. If you look at this situation in terms of yomi, there is only one main sequence that will yield a larger pay off, and that's Akira anticipating a standing guard and going for a FBG combo. This will only take 20 pts damage more but also has the added benefit of R.O. (The success of the FBG combo will of course depend on terrain). So as you can see, using yomi in that situatiuon may not be worth the risk from foregoing a guaranteed 80 pt bodycheck.

    It's true that with superior yomi any one can over come any one. It's possible that a player may only use elbow and low kick to beat any other opponent, but it's unrealistic to think that. Moves can make a difference. In a game of flow, whether or not you have the advantage or disadvantage at each juncture matters.

    Speaking of what was intentionally put in the game, has made me think of a few things. One, primarily on my mind, is the whole double throw escape, throw escape guard, escape throw escape guard, etc, etc. I personally believe that these tactics (if they truly are very reliable) were not meant to be in the game. Clearly, these tactics are a sort of Option Select, something AM2 made a point of trying to eliminate from the game after VF2 was so saturated with it. This is why there are missed throw animations, reversal animations etc. Think about it, what's the point of these? These types of 'option selects' detract from the game's inherent learning curve to utilize YOMI! If they were gone, matches would be faster, more interesting, and escaping throws would be considered a great skill of the mind, not the hands - as it should be.

    I'm not sure about techniques like guard cancel escape, but I'm fairly certain that the double throw at least was implemented on purpose. It's true that yomi is emphasized in VF3 vs VF2, but surely there must be something built into the game that rewards the player who has been playing longer. Perhaps the developers felt that "basic" throws should have less importance in the game, and that's why they only allowed P+G in a DE, as opposed to, say, b+P+G -> f+P+G.

    As for the other defensive techniques...at first, I shared your opinion and thought they were things that AM2 should have never included. But then I changed my mind and decided that perhaps they were an overall positive element in game design.

    My reasoning was two fold.

    1) A lot of veteran VF3 players complain that VF3 is a game where the advanced player did not have as much advantage, and this was seen as a bad thing. Well, these multiple escapes is the answer to that. Only advanced players can take advantage of the multiple escapes (beginners wouldn't know they exist or wouldn't have the reflexes and timing to pull them off consistently), and this may be AM2's answer to the complaint (except that they must have foreseen this, which is even more impressive). Also, one can argue that these option select escapes force both opponents to use even more yomi. These option selects are far from being overtly powerful and they can always be worked around.

    2) These multiple escapes fit into the theme of "layered depth". In VF2, most of the advanced techniques were quite obvious. Any one can tell an iageri apart. Senbon is very distinct. For multiple escapes, on the other hand, beginners who don't know about the techniques wouldn't know if the other player were using them or not.

    Based on that, I don't think Genki had any intentions of balancing the game - they were just the 'porters'. The reason they were chosen is because they are a few ex-AM2 staff on board at Genki who are familiar with model 3 (hence why they also did the port of Virtua Striker). If they truly had thought about tweaking the game in any way, then blatant bugs would have been removed. Now, I don't know anything about porting games between systems, but I would imagine it's a lot of cutting and pasting and tons of optimization and debugging.

    I agree. Genki worked on superficial things like improving AI, working on the modes, etc. for the U.S. version but the gameplay was left untouched--even "bugs" like Wolf's GS -> pick up.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Throw escapes.....

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>


    Speaking of what was intentionally put in the game, has made me think of a few things. One, primarily on my mind, is the whole double throw escape, throw escape guard, escape throw escape guard, etc, etc. I personally believe that these tactics (if they truly are very reliable) were not meant to be in the game. Clearly, these tactics are a sort of Option Select, something AM2 made a point of trying to eliminate from the game after VF2 was so saturated with it. This is why there are missed throw animations, reversal animations etc. Think about it, what's the point of these? These types of 'option selects' detract from the game's inherent learning curve to utilize YOMI! If they were gone, matches would be faster, more interesting, and escaping throws would be considered a great skill of the mind, not the hands - as it should be.


    <hr></blockquote>

    Well, you know there are always way to get around all these throw escape techniques if you think about it more. Without these technique the yomi game become very simple and straightforward, which maybe desirable for some but i think most hardcore vf player will like to have room for growth in vf.
    for example: If a riser got his rising attack blocked =>
    in earlier phase of vf3, where not even double throw escape exist:
    -1. he can throw escape, but will lose to hit moves
    -2. he can guard, but he will be thrown
    2 options only....

    Nowadays: (let's say your rising is guarded by an Akira player)
    -1. you can double throw escape...then you will eat a SPoD
    -2. thus you do reverse double throw escape... then you will eat a Shoulder
    -3. thus you do a guard throw escape.... then you will be thrown if your oppt is smart enough to wait a fraction of seconds before throwing you.
    -4. thus you do an attack throw escape... or simply return to 1. dte. However this will lose to SDE (MC)/Bodycheck
    -5. Escape guard throw escape may get away from SDE, but akira can still nailed you with a crouch dash , delay shoulder ram/throw.
    -6. You simply guard, but akira can Break guard for half lifebar as well...
    -7. so you do a punch, trying to get a free throw for Breakguard, but punch lost to Shoulder and SDE in this situation.
    .
    .
    .
    and this list goes on and on and on. So don't you agree that yomi in this lvl is more interesting and more creative? Except the "basic" okizeme stuffs using these techniques create a lot of interesting play situation, like the example Shota's pointed out that Hiro actually duck when his rising is blocked, imo cuz we (me and shota) like to K(g) or just wait before throwing (therefore nullify the throw break from oppt), hiro read that and simply duck and wait for K(g) motion, so he can GS. besides, shota almost never do Elbow spin at that situation against us at omaha anyway ^o^.

    Some other varieties created with throw escape tech. included low throw throw escape (i got nailed by these pretty often when i try to duck and wait for throw whiff); Against A-te the guy who blocked the rising can back away (perhaps whiff the elbow or punch), then dash back to throw/hit....

    Whether or not this is intentionaly put in by Am2, don't you agree that the match will be more interesting with these throw escape techniques?

    As for the escaping throw that shows great yomi... it still does with these techniques. Remember most of the time you can only escape 1 throw, (g-dte is possible but the difficulty is so high that no one ever bother). So if you manage to break out of the throw it still shows that you have a good yomi, and of course maybe your oppt just been too predictable.

    [P.S. most of these techniques are not too hard, with some practice anyone can e-gte. The hard part is to know which to use at different situations, therefore yomi still relies on your Brain, not on your hand ^^]
     

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